[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

[Judy Taylor]

   On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works (obedience) of the Law.  I think "He" is God, but I will give you Paul for the sake of argument  --  How did Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of miracles  --  through the works of the Law or by the hearing with faith.  My point is the same. jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but He works through men.   JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my point.  The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not law.   Can you understand how I might believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting scripture?    jt: You still can't escape the "obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that clinging to this incarnational thing is folly. JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return to the law.    These folk are converted Gentiles.   They are not Jews.  Yet, there are those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law. jt: How can you be sure they were all Gentiles   JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)    jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that they lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a reputation.  They taught that it was Jesus plus the Levitical system in part even without a temple; these ppl had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh and spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ.    JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were Gentiles, but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most part.  The "flesh" in this passage is the Law.  Context Judy, context. They had the power  --   and Paul is saying, do not choose law over Spirit.   jt: No, he exhorts them to get out of the flesh and back into walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the Law.   JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29.  This is what it says to me:   you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER CHILDREN (24-25).  Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a fellow child of the promise  ---   not Hagar and her children. Pay special attention to verses 28 and 29   ??? And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.  But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh (Hagar?s children ? of the Law) and persecuted himn who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now, also.     jt: There was no law when Ishmael and Isaac were born JD; they were both sons of Abraham after natural generation, the difference between them was spiritual.  Isaac was the child of promise (faith).  Ishmael was the product of the flesh trying to fulfill the promise of God.  They believed God but tried to do it in their own strength just like Moses when he killed the Egyptian.  He knew God wanted him to lead but he didn't wait upon God's timing.  The flesh is forever running out there trying to look good and do good things for God. JD: Look again to 5:16,17:   For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things you please (compare Romans 7:14ff).  But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.    jt: You are making my point JD.  Romans 7 teaches that the only time we are not under the law is when we are married to another (Christ) and we serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. "What shall we say then, is the law sin?" God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law; for I had not known lust except the law had said "Thou shalt not covet" JD: Or, try 6:12-13:  Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.  For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh.?    jt: Sure, they were into nickels, noses, and numbers which is the same as making a good show after the flesh. It's happening all the time. JD: Nothing? !!  The whole book is about the Law and foolishness of seeking to live under its bondage  --  something spirit-filled Galatians are encouraged to reject.  The whole book, Judy. jt: I don't agree JD; the second to last chapter of the book of Galatians Chapter 5 contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit. He says nothing at all about God's Law, nothing!!!!    JD: Sure it does:  For the fruit of the Spirit is love joy ??against such things there is no law   jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the Law) made it a point to teach that love fulfills the law so when we "walk after the Spirit" we will be producing the fruit of the Spirit and this is what it will look like.  It's all about us and our heart attitude because when we walk in and after the flesh we will be overcome rather than "overcomers" JD: Your gospel would tell these folks, ?Use the power of the indweeling that you have received, to fulfill the Law.   Do not reject what God has given !!  Embrace it and live it out in the power of the Holy Ghost.? None of that is found in the letter  -  yet this is your message.   Snip snip, Judy.   jt: I am not antinomian like you JD but the gospel I believe and follow would not tell these ppl anything of the sort; lawless ppl are not living by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are off on their own, doing their own thing and what's more we don't "use" God, we either do things His way or we are just out there deceived.   jt: I don't think so JD. They had been "bewitched" and had moved from faith to fear so Paul was trying to get them back on track.  They wouldn't be working any miracles in that condition; they needed to repent and return to their first works.   JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled by the Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the verge of binding themselves to the Old Law.     jt: What grounds do you have for the above?? Paul never ever bad mouths God's Law. In fact he writes to the Church at Corinth that he is "Not without the law to God but under the law to Christ" (1 Cor 9:21) What about that?   JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this fact:  to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.   jt: Well noone in their right mind (the mind of Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us were mostly totally ignorant of God's Law when we came to Christ.  But hey, if this Law is so obsolete - then why does God (under the New Covenant) write it on our hearts? (see Jeremiah & Hebrews).  Just walking in the flesh while trying to be good "religious" folk is t he same thing because there is no faith in that either. The Levitical system is finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh puts us under the same curse.   JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v for this Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of the fact that Paul contrasts Issac and Mount Sinai. Keep the law, if you will DM  --   as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  The Bishop   jt: If any man or even an angel from heaven come with another gospel "let him be accursed"; actually it is impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the Lord JD. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Also if you are trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you are not any better off ...   JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life.  To think otherwise is heretical at best, and heretical in the lest.  jt: According to who?  I don't see Paul preaching or teaching that doctrine anywhere in Acts or the Epistles. Are you  denying this statement:   The Incarnation is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life, ?  jt: Yes; Paul preached the cross and it is the cross that is the offense which will bring persecution because the flesh does not like to be confronted with it's sad and sorry state.   jt