JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct
answer to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as
opposed to the works (obedience) of the Law. I think
"He" is God, but I will give you Paul for the sake of
argument -- How did Paul provide you with the
Spirit and the working of miracles -- through the
works of the Law or by the hearing with faith. My point
is the same.
jt: Yes the Spirit of
God works the miracles but He works through men.
JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my
point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were
because of faith, not law. Can you understand how
I might believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting
scripture?
jt: You still can't escape the
"obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith
ie "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation
to all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be
of them that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am
quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that
clinging to this incarnational thing is
folly.
JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and
yet, Paul saw only danger in their return to the
law. These folk are converted
Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet, there are
those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to
the Law.
jt: How can you be sure
they were all Gentiles
JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2)
jt: Paul makes a point here, he is
not specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is
that they lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in
fact they stirred up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a
reputation. They taught that it was Jesus plus the
Levitical system in part even without a temple; these ppl had
reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 explains his
meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are
you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between
flesh and spirit, rather than God's Law and
Christ.
JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were
Gentiles, but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the
most part. The "flesh" in this passage is the
Law. Context Judy, context. They had the power
-- and Paul is saying, do not choose law over
Spirit.
jt: No,
he exhorts them to get out of the flesh and back into
walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the
Law.
JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says
to me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND
HER CHILDREN (24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and
Isaac is a fellow child of the promise ---
not Hagar and her children.
Pay special attention to verses
28 and 29 ??? And you brethren, like Isaac, are
children of promise. But as at that time he who was born
according to the flesh (Hagar?s children ? of the Law) and
persecuted himn who was born according to the Spirit, so it is
now, also.
jt: There was no law when Ishmael and
Isaac were born JD; they were both sons of Abraham after
natural generation, the difference between them was
spiritual. Isaac was the child of promise (faith).
Ishmael was the product of the flesh trying to fulfill the
promise of God. They believed God but tried to do it in
their own strength just like Moses when he killed the
Egyptian. He knew God wanted him to lead but he didn't
wait upon God's timing. The flesh is forever running out
there trying to look good and do good things for
God.
JD: Look again to 5:16,17: For
the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit and the Spirit
against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another,
so that you may not do the things you please (compare Romans
7:14ff). But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not
under the Law.
jt: You are making my point JD.
Romans 7 teaches that the only time we are not under the law
is when we are married to another (Christ) and we serve in the
newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
"What shall we say then, is the law sin?" God forbid. Nay, I
had not known sin but by the law; for I had not known lust
except the law had said "Thou shalt not covet"
JD: Or, try 6:12-13: Those who desire to make a
good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised,
simply that they may not be persecuted for the cross of
Christ. For those who are circumcised do not even keep
the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised,
that they may boast in your flesh.?
jt: Sure, they were into nickels,
noses, and numbers which is the same as making a good show
after the flesh. It's happening all the
time.
JD: Nothing? !! The whole book is
about the Law and foolishness of seeking to live under its
bondage -- something spirit-filled Galatians are
encouraged to reject. The whole book, Judy.
jt: I don't agree JD; the
second to last chapter of the book of
Galatians Chapter 5 contrasts the works of the flesh
with the fruit of the Spirit. He says nothing at all about
God's Law, nothing!!!!
JD: Sure it does: For the fruit of the Spirit is
love joy ??against such things there is no law
jt: Yes and Jesus (born under the
Law) made it a point to teach that love fulfills the law so
when we "walk after the Spirit" we will be producing the fruit
of the Spirit and this is what it will look like. It's
all about us and our heart attitude because when we walk in
and after the flesh we will be overcome rather than
"overcomers"
JD: Your gospel would tell these
folks, ?Use the power of the indweeling that you have
received, to fulfill the Law. Do not reject what
God has given !! Embrace it and live it out in the power
of the Holy Ghost.? None of that is found in the letter
- yet this is your message. Snip snip,
Judy.
jt: I am not antinomian like
you JD but the gospel I believe and follow would not
tell these ppl anything of the sort;
lawless ppl are not
living by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are off on their
own, doing their own thing and what's more we don't "use" God,
we either do things His way or we are just out there deceived.
jt: I don't think so JD.
They had been "bewitched" and had moved from faith
to fear so Paul was trying to get them
back on track. They wouldn't be
working any miracles in that condition; they needed to repent
and return to their first works.
JD: The Galatians were not lawless. They were filled
by the Spirit, workers of miracles, children of God on the
verge of binding themselves to the Old Law.
jt: What grounds do you have
for the above?? Paul
never ever bad mouths God's Law. In fact he writes to the
Church at Corinth that he is "Not
without the law to God but under the
law to Christ" (1 Cor 9:21) What about
that?
JD: The really bad news in all this is found in this
fact: to be justified by Law is to be fallen from grace.
jt: Well noone in their right mind
(the mind of Christ) would do that, in fact Gentiles like us
were mostly totally ignorant of God's Law when we came to
Christ. But hey, if this Law is so obsolete - then why
does God (under the New Covenant) write it on our hearts? (see
Jeremiah & Hebrews). Just walking in the flesh
while trying to be good "religious" folk is
t he same thing
because there is no faith in that either. The Levitical system
is finished and gone ... but trusing in the works of the flesh
puts us under the same curse.
JD: Opinions of man mixed with a Bible. I need b, c and v
for this Levitical Law thing??..especially in view of
the
fact that Paul contrasts Issac and Mount
Sinai. Keep the law, if you will DM --
as for me and my house, we will
serve the Lord. The
Bishop
jt: If any man or even an angel from
heaven come with another gospel "let him be accursed";
actually it is impossible to be lawless and ATST serve the
Lord JD. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Also
if you are trusting in the "incarnation" or "perichoresis" you
are not any better off ...
JD: The Incarnation is the story and purpose and
continued effect of the Christ in my (our) life. To
think otherwise is heretical at best, and heretical in the
lest.
jt: According to
who? I don't see Paul preaching or teaching that
doctrine anywhere in Acts or the Epistles.
Are
you denying this statement: The Incarnation
is the story and purpose and continued effect of the Christ in
my (our) life, ?
jt: Yes;
Paul preached the cross and it is the cross that is the
offense which will bring persecution because the flesh does
not like to be confronted with it's sad and sorry
state. jt
