Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, you have it all wrong. You frequently either do not
understand my position and present it incorrectly, even after I have
corrected you, or else you are intentionally trying to misrepresent my
beliefs and what I say.
First, I am not anti-mormon, I am anti-mormonism.
DAVEH: As LDS folks define it, you qualify Perry.
There is a difference, which although I have explained it
to you,which you refuse to acknowledge.
DAVEH: You choose to do that which you have accused me of
doing....changing definitions to suit yourself. You can define
anti-Mormon anyway you want for your own purposes, but when I use it, I
use it as it is typically defined by the folks who coined the term.
That is most meaningful to LDS people and our definition accurately
reflects how we understand and use the term.
A MORMON is someone who follows MORMONISM. I am not
against those people. I am against what they follow: MORMONISM.
DAVEH: And like I said, Mormons define that as being anti-Mormon.
Why do you feel the need to change the definition, Perry? Does it make
you feel uncomfortable. I don't get it....must really bug you, eh....
So, you can call me ANTI-MORMONISM if you like. If you
continue to refer to me as ANTI-MORMON from this point on, not only
will you be stating a falsehood,
DAVEH: Nonsense....do you want me to post the definition of
anti-Mormon again? You must not have believed it the first time....
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:Anti-Mormon
........and here's Jeff Lindsay's explanation.....
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Facet.shtml#anti
.........So Perry, I don't know why you would accuse me of lying about
a definition of a word that is quite familiar to most LDS folks. If
you feel the need to change the definition to make you feel more
innocent, that's up to you. Just be aware that when LDS folks use the
term, it simply defines the degree with which you are critical of the
Church (or perhaps its leaders). Like I've said on here before, there
are very few TTers who agree with LDS theology. That in itself does
not make them anti-Mormon. But at least two TTers seem to have made it
a crusade to denigrate LDS theology, and that is why I feel you and
Kevin meet the traditional definition of anti-Mormon as it is commonly
used by LDS folks. Why would you dispute it and suggest that I will be
stating a falsehood by using a term in its proper context of
definition? Your last comment is simply silly, Perry. I would
hope you would read the definitions I posted and sincerely ask yourself
if I (DAVEH) am stating a falsehood by using the anti-Mormon term as it
is properly defined. If you continue to feel that way, we have a
serious disagreement.
but I will assume you are intentionally trying to
misrepresent what I am against.
DAVEH: FTR....I'm not intentionally trying to misrepresent you,
Perry. If I make a mistake about my understanding of your beliefs, I
will apologize. But in this case, it is quite clear that you meet the
definition of anti-Mormon as coined and defined by Mormons. So...I
feel no need to apologize for miscategorizing you, as it is obvious
that I haven't.
Secondly, I have NEVER said that satan is equal to jesus or that you
believe that. You are terribly mistaken if you think that. I have said
that Satan and Jesus are BROTHERS! Even you agree with that. That is
all. Stop trying to put words in my mouth and misrepresenting what I
say.
DAVEH: OK Perry....I will acknowledge that you have not said such. I
merely said that I believe anti-Mormons (and I do categorize you as
such) want people to believe such. I should have qualified it by
saying many. I apologize for mischaracterizing you in that way. As I
said, it is what I believed, and in this instance I was apparently
wrong. My apologies....
Finally, I have been to Jeff Lindsey's website on several occasions
and have read various apologies of his. He not only sounds quite
convinced,
DAVEH: I have no doubt that his is very sincere in his beliefs. I
feel the same way, but I have no where near the knowledge and talent in
conveying his thoughts as does JL.
but even at times sounds quite convincing. But, as with
all mormon apologists I have read, such as Nibly and Reynolds, they all
ASSUME that what they are researching is true, then weave a story that
supports it, regardless of the facts.
DAVEH: What you see is an assumption is from a Mormon's
standpoint a conviction. As we've discussed before, and you
well know, LDS folks are not constrained by only believing in God's
Word to what is found in the Bible. So, many things we find easy to
believe (due to being explicitly explained in extra-Biblical Scripture)
seems merely like an assumption to somebody with a perspective that is
limited to just the Bible. When convicted of the Holy Ghost of our
beliefs, our stubborn tenacity to holding to LDS tenets may seem
precarious to non-Mormons. But to us, it makes a lot of sense, and we
tend to feel very comfortable with our goofy (as Terry would put it)
beliefs.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Goofy
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:47:04 -0700
DAVEH: I've been debating with myself whether to violate my own self
imposed embargo on discussing LDS theology with you, Perry. Rather
than just let this go at this point, let me say that I believe
anti-Mormons want to promote the idea that Mormons believe Satan is
equal to Jesus. As I tried to explain in my brief explanation to
Terry, that is not the case at all. For a much better explanation of
what I was trying to convey, read the second topic (and the first topic
is closely related, as well) of Jeff Lindsay's treatise on the
accusation.......
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml
......Hopefully that will put the discussion in the proper perspective.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
So, David, you admit that you DO believe
that Satan and Jesus are brothers (although you did not say it
directly, following your somewhat circular argument, you implied it)?
Why all the hoopla just to confirm that? Why all the questioning
whether Terry really believes it, or if he believes it because that is
what Kevin and I are trying to make Terry think, or whatever you said.
Lets face it. Kevin and I said it. Terry understood it. You admitted
it. Why all the accusations? We present what we have learned about the
mormon faith, mostly from your own leaders, and believe it to be the
truth about what you believe. We are not intentionally trying to
mislead...we are intentionally trying to inform. So, if we say
something that is not true, tell us. Don't go mealy-mouth
couching-it-in-some-indirect-non-descript
maybe-it-is-and-maybe-it-isn't way to try to disguise it.
If Kevin and I do not present the truth of mormonism, the "meat" of the
faith, the disgusting aspects like the brotherhood of Satan and jesus,
that mormons do NOT want to reveal, then who will? You certainly won't.
Is there no help for the widow's son?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Goofy
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:48:41 -0700
Terry Clifton wrote:
The other day, in a response to Perry, I stated that what the Mormons
believe is goofy. Lance felt that was inappropriate and though he did
not say so, I assume that Dave H felt the same. This note is not to
apologise. Goofy was the best descrition that I could think of at the
time.
DAVEH: I've got no problem with your term goofy, Terry. Actually it
accurately describes what was described to you as my belief.
Unfortunately, it does not accurately portray my belief. That is why
it was explained as it was....to make it sound goofy. Has it ever
occurred to you that the folks who post goofy sounding stuff may have
an agenda and are trying to spin the message in order to influence the
reader to believe in a particular way? Have you ever wondered why LDS
folks like Blaine or me believe such goofy stuff as you've seen posted?
Let me suggest that perhaps what you've seen posted is not quite
what we believe. And, let me suggest that though we may believe things
that seem goofy to you, we have explanations of why we believe as we do
that may not be as goofy as you might think. I think that is one
reason Mormonism appeals to some folks. They hear how goofy it is, but
when they sincerely look into it and find out what we really believe
and why we believe it....it doesn't seem so goofy after all.
The thinking by some is that we are all in error to some degree, so why
single out the Mormons?
DAVEH: Because that is the nature of some in this group. Pick the
big targets and denigrate them to make them sound so goofy that nobody
will believe anything they say. If they can dispense with the big
targets, then perhaps they will then turn to smaller targets. But as
long as the Mormons hang around TT, I suspect you are relatively safe,
Terry.
For me,Kevin and Perry have posted any number of good reasons,
DAVEH: Does it occur to you that they may be trying to grind an ax,
and that when doing so their posts are sharpened to use to decapitate
their foes rather than discern truth?
but the thing that sticks in my craw is
that the Mormons claim that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
DAVEH: Are you sure that's what you heard the Mormons claim? Or are
you just thinking that's what Mormons have claimed simply because
you've heard it so often from anti-Mormons who want you to believe
such? I've explained the LDS perspective on this before, and I will do
so again since you have a problem with it. I hope that Perry will be
kind enough not to criticize me for teaching a little Mormonism at this
juncture.
I belief our Heavenly Father spiritually created us (you, me, Jesus,
Lucifer and all the angels of heaven) in a pre-mortal spiritual state.
Jesus is the firstborn of his Father in Heaven. He was foreordained to
be God and the creator of our physical existence. Do you agree with
that, Terry? Either way you believe, let me just explain that is why I
consider Jesus to be our Elder Brother. The rest of us, including the
angels of heaven, Lucifer and those of us who have been born into
mortality, were spiritually created after Jesus. Lucifer endeavored to
usurp Jesus' power, and subsequent to the heavenly battle fought over
that power, Lucifer and his minions denounced the Lord and were ejected
from heaven. Roughly, that is the basis for why some non-LDS folks
conclude that Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus.
Terry, how would you feel if I said that you believe God is the
author of evil? Would you not be somewhat offended that I would
conclude such, and that I would tell others that's what you believe?
Well....why would I ever say such a thing. Let me give you the logic
similar to what Kevin has been using to convince you that I believe
Jesus and Satan are brothers. You believe God created
everything...correct? So...you believe God created Satan, and
therefore God created evil. Hence, I could conclude (in error) that
you believe God is the author of evil. Does my analogy make sense to
you, Terry?
This is a terrible sin. It is lying
about God. Jesus Christ is the creator of all things. Without Him,
nothing was made that was made. Satan is a created being, not a god,
not a human, he is an angel and the most evil angel ever created. To
make him a brother to Jesus is to elevate Satan to a god and to demote
Jesus to the status of angel.
DAVEH: Ohhhhh........I should have read further before giving my
previous example. Maybe you do believe Jesus is the author of
evil??? Correct me if I am wrong, Terry.
Now from my previous (above) explanation, I hope you realize that I
consider Jesus to be God from the time he was spiritually created by
his Father in Heaven. And yes, I realize that we will differ on that
aspect of Jesus, but that is a tangent to this discussion. Jesus was
foreordained to be our Savior, and Lucifer was not. Lucifer was not
God. He fought against God, and was ejected from heaven for his denial
of the Lord's power. I do not know why you think we elevate Satan to
the level of God. I can only assume you have incorrectly concluded
such because of what Kevin may have posted in an effort to make you
think that is what I believe.
If any person teaches this, they are a
false teacher and are going to spend eternity in Hell.
DAVEH: Are you referring to those who are trying to convince you that
I believe that which I don't?
Dave Hansen is nice to us and we
should be nice to him.
DAVEH: I appreciate that, Terry. I don't expect you to agree with my
beliefs, but I would appreciate you asking me what I believe before you
presume that which somebody else says accurately portrays my beliefs.
We must love him, but allowing him to
think this lie is truth is not loving.
DAVEH: That is exactly why I am trying to explain to you what I
believe....so that you will no longer believe the lies that are
perpetrated about what I believe.
I would offend him every hour of
every day if it would bring him to Christ.
Terry
DAVEH: I sincerely appreciate your concern for my eternal welfare,
Terry.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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