DH I chose 3.....two of which we agreed, and one that we did not. I did it as a simple example to demonstrate a principle. That I may or may not believe the things you say below to emphasize the differences in how we perceive the attributes of Jesus, it does not mean that we are not talking about the same Jesus of the Bible
CPL says "Dave, it appears that you conveniently chose the similarities to focus on."
Mark 13:6; 21-22 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many.
Why does Paul talk about FALSE TEACHERS & PREACHERS in almost every Epistle?
How is one to identify the AntiChrist, when he arrives? Will we focus on the similarities between him and the Real Christ?
False teachers always add some truth how else can they fool others, an Orange dollar bill is not going to fool anyone. An Orange dollar bill may be identical in EVERY other point, but it is still a phony. To focus on the similarites is to miss the point, it is in the differences that we identify the phony!
When AntiChrist comes he will focus on his similarities, he will produce miracles (same) he will come back from a lethal head wound (same) he will have spiritual power (same), he will not focus on the differences. false teachers mix truth with a little bit of error. The devil never shows up in a red suit he comes as a Preacher of righteousness, in sheeps clothing Matthew 7:15-23, but a phony none the less. We can identify him and other falsehoods by the Word of God & by comparisons with the Truths revealed in that word.
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" Isa. 8:20
Not by comparing his sheepskin to a real sheepskin. We must look below the surface and there we will find the hidden wolve come to destroy! The comparison that will identify him is not what similarities or truths we can find but ANY errors or untruth we can identify. It only takes ONE error to make a phony dollar same with a false teacher or false christ. ONE ERROR makes a False prophet!
We are told in the scriptures to "prove all things" be a wise berean! 1 Thessalonians 5:21
2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.''
Why do LDS want to find our "COMMON" issues and similarities?
Are they trying to focus on the sheepskin they are wearing?
>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible
>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:39:46 -0700
>
>
>
>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>
>>Dave, it appears that you conveniently chose the similarities to focus on.
>
>DAVEH: I chose 3.....two of which we agreed, and one that we did not. I
>did it as a simple example to demonstrate a principle. That I may or may
>not believe the things you say below to emphasize the differences in how we
>perceive the attributes of Jesus, it does not mean that we are not talking
>about the same Jesus of the Bible who died on a cross and was resurrected 3
>days later. To both of us....he is our Savior and Redeemer.
>
> Rather than get into long involved discussions about the validity of
>each of your below points, let me point out that you are not defining Jesus
>as you perceive him, but rather your are trying to define him by telling us
>what you think he isn't. How does that tell anybody what you believe to be
>the real Jesus, Perry? You seem more intent on dealing me out of the game
>rather than explain what you believe about Jesus.
>
> How do you know God does not have a spirit wife(s)??? Does the Bible
>tell you he does not? How do you know Jesus' Father in Heaven does not
>have a body of flesh and bone? Does the Bible say such? Why do you think
>Jesus is not from Kolob? Does you Bible say such? If the Bible does not
>specifically say those things, then I assume you are offering opinions that
>may or may not be as valid as mine? Rather than speculate on what you
>think Jesus is not, why don't you tell us what you believe based on what
>the Bible says.
>
> For instance, I believe Jesus' Heavenly Father is a man, and I offer as
>evidence that the Bible tells us Jesus is the Son of man. Now you may
>disagree with my understanding of that, but what Bible evidence would you
>offer to say that God is not a man?
>
> As for Jesus not having genetic material, are you suggesting he did
>not? The Bible doesn't say either way, I was just offering my opinion
>based on my belief that I believe Jesus is the Son of God....the literal
>Son of God. If you don't believe such, that's OK Perry. In this
>instance, I may believe more in the literalness of Jesus' sonship than you.
> FTR....I don't recall any official doctrines of the LDS Church saying
>Jesus has genetic material of his Father. That is my speculation, and I
>qualified it with a /so to speak /comment. I don't think there is anything
>in the Bible to refute it....if so, I'm anxious to hear your argument.
>
> As for your question #9, LDS theology teaches that Mary was a virgin in
>the traditional sense of never being with a man, as you put it. While
>there may be a few (and I stress FEW) LDS folks who may have suggested
>otherwise, by far most (and I would put that at more than 99.99% of the
>membership) agrees with the official LDS position that she was a virgin
>prior to the birth of Jesus. If you do not understand my emphatic
>explanation of that, and continue to mention such things in an attempt to
>discredit my beliefs, you will be doing yourself the same disservice as
>Kevin who stubbornly holds on to a lie to his own detriment.
>
> So Perry, is the Jesus I believe died on the cross to bring us
>salvation through his grace the same Jesus you believe was crucified to
>bring you salvation? What is not in the Bible is speculation. What
>counts is the Jesus who is revealed in the Bible to be our Messiah. Do you
>disagree?
>
> Now Perry....we are back to the problem you presented when you accused
>me of being on TT to preach Mormonism. You (and others) continue to bring
>up LDS related stuff and push it in my face. As you know....there is no
>point in my discussing LDS stuff with you, considering your voiced intent
>is to denigrate anything to do with Mormonism. However, do you want to
>discuss Jesus as he is presented in the Bible? If so, that might make a
>meaningful discussion. I will avoid bringing latter-day revelation into
>the discussion (except perhaps obliquely), and I would expect you not to
>bring post Biblical dogma like the Trinity Doctrine to the discussion.
>Then we could look at Jesus simply as seen through the eyes of the Bible.
>Does that appeal to you (or anybody else)?
>
> I will change the subject line to reflect this new thread should
>anybody wish to pursue it. And BTW.....I really have no idea of how it
>will turn out. Without my LDS related extra-Biblical material, I may be up
>a creek without the proverbial paddle. For anybody willing to engage me,
>I will endeavor to be polite and not give a sucker punch when and if the
>opportunity avails itself. Likewise, I would expect those on the other
>side of the table to treat me as they would want to be treated. Fair
>enough? Any takers.......?
>
> If so, I will state a few of the things I believe the Bible says about
>Jesus that I agree with......
>
>1. Jesus existed in the pre-mortal existence and was foreordained to be
>the Savior
>
>2. Jesus was born of a virgin
>
>3. Jesus did not sin while in mortality
>
>4. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
>
>.......That seems like a simple start. Does anybody disagree? If so,
>present Biblical evidence and let's talk about it. If you agree with all
>the above, what additional attributes do you believe about Jesus and I will
>offer my opinion in return. In not too may posts, I suspect we will get
>into stuff where we don't agree, and then hopefully the discussion will
>provide some insightful thoughts. I just implore anybody who gets involved
>to keep the discussion on the table and avoid getting down into the mud.
>
>
>
>>Let me mention a few differences.
>>
>>1. Is you jesus a procreated being from your god and one of his spirit
>>wives? Not Mine.
>>
>>2. Is your jesus the brother of Satan? Not mine.
>>
>>3. Is the father of your jesus flesh and bones? not mine.
>>
>>4. Was the father of your jesus once a man? Not mine.
>>
>>5. Did the father of your jesus have a father? Not mine.
>>
>>6. Id the father of your jesus from Kolob? not mine.
>>
>>7. Did the father of your jesus have multiple spirit wives? not mine.
>>
>>8. Are your jesus, and his father, and the holy spirit 3 gods? Not mine.
>>
>>9. In the mormon paradigm, does virgin mean "young girl", or "never been
>>with a man"?
>>
>>10. Where in the Bible does it say god's genetic material ended up in
>>mary? Where does it even say god HAS genetic material.
>>
>>Dave, in my opinion (and evidently in the opinoin of many) they are not
>>the same. You have said it yourself...all false religions contain some of
>>the truth...mormonism is no exception.
>>
>>Perry
>>
>>
>>>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:03:05 -0700
>>>
>>>* the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus.*
>>>
>>>DAVEH: Perhaps I should have explained myself a bit better, Perry.
>>>What I was objecting to was your above comment. I don't see where it is
>>>anybody's job to denigrate, berate or disqualify another's belief about
>>>Jesus. Regardless what you may think I believe or not believe about
>>>Jesus....My Jesus is my Savior, just as he is your Savior.
>>>
>>> As I see it....you, Kevin, Lance or any other person (Christian or
>>>not) can explain their belief in Jesus as they perceive him. Then I (or
>>>anybody else) can agree that I believe the same way, or not. For
>>>instance....
>>>
>>> FWIW....I may be wrong in my assumptions of what you believe about
>>>the following, but follow along to get a feel for what I am trying to
>>>say:
>>>
>>>1) I assume you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother. I believe
>>>the same.
>>>
>>>2) As I understand it, you believe Jesus was conceived by the Holy
>>>Ghost. I do not. I believe he is literalerally the Son of God, being
>>>conceived of the genetic (if that is the correct term) material of our
>>>Heavenly Father by the power of the Holy Ghost.
>>>
>>>3) You believe Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
>>> I believe the same.
>>>
>>> Now, the above is a somewhat simplistic example, but I think it
>>>illustrates the point. On two of the three points we agree. On one we
>>>disagree. Does that mean that we believe in two totally different
>>>Saviors? Not in my opinion.
>>>
>>> You are probably asking what this has to do with the original
>>>discussion. The point I am trying to make is that if you were to single
>>>out my believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God as evidence that I
>>>believe in a different Jesus than you do.....well.....you might have to
>>>say that I believe the Bible too much when I quote a myriad of passages
>>>supporting my perspective view about Jesus. Does the fact that we might
>>>have two different perspectives about Jesus' paternal attributes mean
>>>that we are talking about two different people? If not....then what
>>>point is there in trying to prove what the person believes is wrong. It
>>>doesn't change the fact that we are still talking about Jesus who was
>>>born of a virgin and died on a cross in our behalf.
>>>
>>> Now....If you said you believed in the Jesus who died on the cross
>>>and was resurrected, and I said I believed in the Jesus who sold tacos in
>>>Mexico.....then it becomes obvious that we are talking about different;
>>>people. You would not have to prove anything about my Jesus being the
>>>wrong one. There would be nothing in common between them to tie them
>>>together.
>>>
>>> Yikes....I think I'm rambling on now. I hope I adequately explained
>>>why I said what I did. If you want clarification, just ask.
>>>
>>>
>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dave,
>>>>
>>>> Wait a minute! I agree with you and then you tell me I have it
>>>>backwards? How does that work?
>>>>
>>>> You said, "Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I
>>>>believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe
>>>>in Jesus."
>>>>
>>>> I responded, "I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus,
>>>>and the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus."
>>>>
>>>> And now you say, "You've got that a bit backwards, Perry."
>>>>
>>>> Aren't you in essence, then saying that YOU had it a bit backwards
>>>>since I was agreeing with you?
>>>>
>>>>Perry
>>>>
>>>>>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>>>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>>>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:25:39 -0700
>>>>>
>>>>>DAVEH: You've got that a bit backwards, Perry. The onus is on you
>>>>>to prove (explain might be a better word) your Jesus.....I don't recall
>>>>>seeing much of that on TT.....other than he created the world, was born
>>>>>of a virgin, died and was resurrected......all of which I believe. Is
>>>>>there more you (TTers) want to say about your belief about Jesus?
>>>>>
>>>>>Charles Perry Locke wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Dave,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>** I feel we have done that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our
>>>>>>evidence, and I suppose short of having a vision, you never will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you say
>>>>>>you beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like
>>>>>>shooting yourself in the foot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Perry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>>>>>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I
>>>>>>>believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't
>>>>>>>believe in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin, you
>>>>>>>Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Lance Muir wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage
>>>>>>>>in a conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to
>>>>>>>>build upon that which has been said previously.According to you THE
>>>>>>>>JESUS TO BE BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED
>>>>>>>>WITHIN MORMON TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin,
>>>>>>>>Perry, Lance et al is a false Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy
>>>>>>>>but, you get my point)What, IYO, are the eternal consequenses for
>>>>>>>>non-Mormons? Mr. Moderator:Please grant DaveH the opportunity of
>>>>>>>>fully answering and, explaining.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus. Therefore can we
>>>>>>>>conclude
>>>>>>>> that you've made the judgment rather than God?
>>>>>>>>
>>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Dave Hansen
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://www.langlitz.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>If you wish to receive
>things I find interesting,
>I maintain six email lists...
>JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
>STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
>
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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