jt: An indwelling of what? What do you mean an
indwelling and upon what do you base this assumption?
Judy, please read the following verses from the
Gospel of John. Contemplate the words of our Lord, especially those which are
underlined. Perhaps as you ponder them, they will begin to resonate within
you, and you will begin to apprehend and appreciate what I mean when I speak of
the "mutual indwelling." If not, then just say so and we can proceed from
there.
Bill
John 1.18 No one has seen God at any time. The
only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared
Him.
John 5.17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has
been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not
only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself
equal with God.
John 6.46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father,
except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 8.16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am
not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
John 8.42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would
love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of
Myself, but He sent Me.
John 10.15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the
Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10.30 "I and My Father are one."
John 10.37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe
Me; 38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you
may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
John 13.3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all
things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to
God,
John 14.9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and
yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the
Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe
that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to
you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me
does the works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in
Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 14.19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no
more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 "At that day
you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in
you.
John 14.26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will
send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
things that I said to you. 27 "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you;
not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither
let it be afraid. 28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming
back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to
the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. ... 15.26 "But when the Helper
comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth
who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 16.26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say
to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 "for the Father Himself loves
you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from
God. 28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.
Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
John 17.5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together
with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world
was.
John 17.20 "I do not pray for these alone,
but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all
may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may
be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And the glory
which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We
are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made
perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have
loved them as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You
gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have
given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:22
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for
the eternal sonship of Christ
Judy
writes > I don't recall ever having made a rule Bill.
The scriptures themselves say that if any man speaks he should speak as the
oracles of God. If you are going to represent Him then you should say
what He says about himself. Your doctrine of "perichoresis" is
alien to anything I have read in scripture. Where do you find this
dance and relationship? The Godhead is one - so is God dancing with
Himself?
No, the "dance" or the "choir" is
descriptive of the inner relations between the Persons of the "Godhead," the
Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. As per OT testimony God is "one" by
way of unity. This has been demonstrated on numerous occasions. You refuse
to consider it.
jt: I find it easier to go with
what God says about Himself than to try and conform Him to the writings of
various and sundry
theologians. You don't know
about the "inner workings" of the Godhead and neither did Athanasius or
Gregory of Nyzantius.
By the way, if in your view of the Godhead
there are no inner relations, how then is "symphony" an apt description of
it? That is, if "God is one" to the exclusion of a mutual indwelling, how
can he be acting in "harmony" like a "symphony"? You are not even consistent
with your own "object lesson," Judy. Why be so critical of mine? "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and
dish, that the outside of them may be clean also." Check out
these definitions:
jt: They work as one - like a
human body. How would it be if my head had to be in relationship with
my heart and that with my digestive system. It all works as one when
one is healthy. When cells begin to do their own thing it means
trouble.
Symphony: from Greek sumph ni , from sumphnos, harmonious: sun-, syn- + phn , sound.
Harmony: Simultaneous
combination of notes in a chord; a combination of sounds
considered pleasing to the ear.
Harmonious: Exhibiting
accord in feeling or action; having component
elements pleasingly or appropriately combined: a harmonious
blend of architectural styles. Characterized by harmony of sound;
melodious; exhibiting equivalence or correspondence among
constituents of an entity or between different entities; symmetrical; existing together in harmony;
"harmonious family relationships."
jt: Bill please forget the
symphony - I regret having said anything, it is getting way to
complicated.
You continue to uphold your
"symphony" description, but you criticize my use of perichoresis to
speak of the same inner relations (which by my view is an actual
indwelling). This is a double standard, Judy. IF you refuse to see it,
then so be it.
jt: An indwelling of what? What do you mean
an indwelling and upon what do you base this assumption?
Till next time, Bill
Judy writes > Yes, Nathan
was the prophet and his words were inspired by God since this was the
anointing for his ministry - fourfold restitution was what is required
under the law of Moses. So what is
the problem Bill? . . .
BT > The
problem is, Judy, you have evidently missed the point. Without
some "non-biblical" input to place my answer in context, you
misunderstood my use of Scripture to say to you what "God says
using God's words." No problem, I will add some commentary of my own to
try to help you with the context.
jt: No Bill
the problem is yours. God is not saying these words to me. You are
saying them and this is your judgment, not His.
You are guilty of doing
the very thing you expect others not to do.
jt: Oh
really? So now I am an adulterer and a murderer like David? Well
when I will wait for God to send the prophet Nathan to speak the
truth to me. Let's face it Bill. I am no king and you are no
prophet.
The pertinent statement
in my use of the Nathan/David account was this: "You are the man!" Yes,
David could have had Nathan killed -- but he didn't. Instead, not
playing insinsate, he got the point of Nathan's parable and repented of
his wrong doing; that is, he was quilty as charged; he knew it; and
rather than skirt the issue, he took responsibility
for his actions.
How does this pertain to
you? You have yet to take responsibility for
yours. Concerning the use of non-biblical terminology to speak to
biblical concepts, you make the following claim: "You may all do
this Bill but one speaking as the 'oracles of God' says what God says
using God's Words . . . Reaping what we sow is God's righteous
judgment."
Judy,
you are complicit in doing the same thing; e.g., you have written
concerning the Godhead, "They were one in all aspects and operated like
a symphony," and "I would demonstrate the Godhead this way: God the
Father has the thought; God the Word speaks it into existence; and God
the Spirit carries it out. So you see the Godhead as one working in
harmony, like a symphony."
jt: Jesus
said "I and the Father are one and it is written that he was given the
spirit without measure" I used the word symphony as an object lesson
since this is the way it appears to me. I am not writing legalese or
doctrine which you seem to interpret it as - nor do I come to TT as a
"teacher" professer. I am an ordinary every day believer sharing who I
am in Christ. For this I take responsibility - but not for your wild
flights of fancy Bill.
Debbie wrote this
to you: "When talking about God or what he is saying to us
in the Bible, I am sure I use terms which are not in any
translation or manuscript of Scripture." As do you, Judy, as
witnessed above. Hence, with her, why do you not also "find
it strange and arbitrary to make a rule of avoiding doing
so"? You do not apply
your own rules to yourself.
jt: I don't
recall ever having made a rule Bill. The scriptures themselves say
that if any man speaks he should speak as the oracles of God. If
you are going to represent Him then you should say what He says about
himself. Your doctrine of "perichoresis" is alien to anything
I have read in scripture. Where do you find this dance and
relationship? The Godhead is one - so is God dancing with
Himself?
And as I said before, nor ought you
have to. The problem here is not with the language you use; it
is with your unreasonable expectation concerning the language of others,
whether it be mine or Debbie's or anyone else's. In other
words, you need to change your standards. They are untenable -- not even you can meet them.
jt: It is
God's standard for those who claim to represent Him publicly. What
I am doing here is my own private testimony. You are constantly
quoting doctrines and teachings constructed by men that have
little to do with what God says about Himself and when anyone
questions them it makes you angry.
And so, the question is, are you going to continue to
skirt the issue, or are you going to drop the attack on others, take
responsibility for your actions and change your standards?
jt: The
attack is all in your head Bill. Noone is immune to questioning on this
list - you should know that by now and if what you are holding on to is
truth then you don't need to fear, it will stand.
Bill
(By the way, DaveH and G: I am preparing responses to your
requests. I will get them out when this conflict is resolved -- if, that
is, it can be resolved)
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