Where do you find the dancing? jt
The "dance" is in reference to choresis, which means
as well "choir" or "chorus" or "accord." What Father and Son do they
do together in one accord, as in a dance.
By the way, your initial question was in reference to the mutual
"indwelling" between the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. You failed to
mention this in your post below, electing instead to shift the discussion to the
"dance": Are you confident now that you understand what I am referencing
when I speak of the mutual indwelling between the participants of the Godhead?
If not, then please revisit the Scripture I have provided you (there is plenty
of it with which to work), asking questions as needed for clarification. I will
be glad to accommodate you along the way with answers.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 11:02
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for
the eternal sonship of Christ
I know what the scriptures below mean and have
personally experienced them Bill. However, I don't see what any of them
have to do with a "dance" per se. Jesus was a "suffering savior" and as
believers we are told that we will have "tribulation" and or "suffering"; I
understand how He is in the Father and the Father in Him and He is in us and
we in Him, that is "If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my father
will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He
that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings and the word which ye hear is not
mine, but the father's which sent me" (John 14:23,24). But the Comforter
which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach
you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have
said unto you (Vs.26)
jt: An indwelling of what? What do you mean
an indwelling and upon what do you base this assumption?
Judy, please read the following verses from
the Gospel of John. Contemplate the words of our Lord, especially those
which are underlined. Perhaps as you ponder them, they will begin
to resonate within you, and you will begin to apprehend and appreciate
what I mean when I speak of the "mutual indwelling." If not, then just say
so and we can proceed from there. Bill
John 1.18 No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has
declared Him.
John 5.17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has
been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not
only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making
Himself equal with God.
John 6.46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father,
except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 8.16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I
am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
John 8.42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you
would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I
come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 10.15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the
Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10.30 "I and My Father are one."
John 10.37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not
believe Me; 38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the
works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in
Him."
John 13.3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all
things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to
God,
John 14.9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long,
and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the
Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe
that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak
to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in
Me does the works. 11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the
Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works
themselves.
John 14.19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no
more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 "At that
day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in
you.
John 14.26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father
will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your
remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 "Peace I leave with you, My
peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your
heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 "You have heard Me say to
you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would
rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater
than I. ... 15.26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you
from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the
Father, He will testify of Me.
John 16.26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not
say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 "for the Father Himself
loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth
from God. 28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the
world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
John 17.5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me
together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before
the world was.
John 17.20 "I do not pray for these
alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21
"that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You;
that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent
Me. 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may
be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in
Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know
that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. 24 "Father,
I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that
they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before
the foundation of the world.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:22
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic
for the eternal sonship of Christ
Judy
writes > I don't recall ever having made a rule
Bill. The scriptures themselves say that if any man speaks he
should speak as the oracles of God. If you are going to represent
Him then you should say what He says about himself. Your doctrine
of "perichoresis" is alien to anything I have read in
scripture. Where do you find this dance and relationship?
The Godhead is one - so is God dancing with Himself?
No, the "dance" or the "choir" is
descriptive of the inner relations between the Persons of the "Godhead,"
the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit. As per OT testimony God is
"one" by way of unity. This has been demonstrated on numerous occasions.
You refuse to consider it.
jt: I find it easier to go
with what God says about Himself than to try and conform Him to the
writings of various and sundry
theologians. You don't
know about the "inner workings" of the Godhead and neither did
Athanasius or Gregory of Nyzantius.
By the way, if in your view of the
Godhead there are no inner relations, how then is "symphony" an apt
description of it? That is, if "God is one" to the exclusion of a mutual
indwelling, how can he be acting in "harmony" like a "symphony"? You are
not even consistent with your own "object lesson," Judy. Why be so
critical of mine? "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse
the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean
also." Check out these definitions:
jt: They work as one - like a
human body. How would it be if my head had to be in relationship
with my heart and that with my digestive system. It all works as
one when one is healthy. When cells begin to do their own thing it
means trouble.
Symphony: from Greek sumph ni , from sumphnos, harmonious: sun-, syn- + phn , sound.
Harmony: Simultaneous
combination of notes in a chord; a combination of
sounds considered pleasing to the ear.
Harmonious: Exhibiting
accord in feeling or action; having component
elements pleasingly or appropriately combined: a
harmonious blend of architectural styles. Characterized by
harmony of sound; melodious; exhibiting equivalence or
correspondence among constituents of an entity or between different
entities; symmetrical; existing together in
harmony; "harmonious family relationships."
jt: Bill please forget the
symphony - I regret having said anything, it is getting way to
complicated.
You continue to uphold your
"symphony" description, but you criticize my use of perichoresis to
speak of the same inner relations (which by my view is an actual
indwelling). This is a double standard, Judy. IF you refuse to see
it, then so be it.
jt: An indwelling of what? What do you
mean an indwelling and upon what do you base this
assumption?
Till next time, Bill
Judy writes > Yes,
Nathan was the prophet and his words were inspired by God since this
was the anointing for his ministry - fourfold restitution was what
is required under the law of Moses. So what is the problem Bill? . . .
BT >
The problem is, Judy, you have evidently missed the point.
Without some "non-biblical" input to place my answer in
context, you misunderstood my use of Scripture to say to
you what "God says using God's words." No problem, I will add
some commentary of my own to try to help you with the
context.
jt: No
Bill the problem is yours. God is not saying these words to
me. You are saying them and this is your judgment, not
His.
You are guilty of
doing the very thing you expect others not to do.
jt: Oh
really? So now I am an adulterer and a murderer like David?
Well when I will wait for God to send the prophet Nathan to
speak the truth to me. Let's face it Bill. I am no king
and you are no prophet.
The pertinent
statement in my use of the Nathan/David account was this: "You are
the man!" Yes, David could have had Nathan killed -- but he
didn't. Instead, not playing insinsate, he got the point of Nathan's
parable and repented of his wrong doing; that is, he was quilty as
charged; he knew it; and rather than skirt the
issue, he took responsibility for his
actions.
How does this pertain
to you? You have yet to take responsibility for
yours. Concerning the use of non-biblical terminology to
speak to biblical concepts, you make the following claim: "You
may all do this Bill but one speaking as the 'oracles of God' says
what God says using God's Words . . . Reaping what we sow is God's
righteous judgment."
Judy, you are complicit in doing the same
thing; e.g., you have written concerning the Godhead, "They
were one in all aspects and operated like a symphony," and "I would
demonstrate the Godhead this way: God the Father has the thought;
God the Word speaks it into existence; and God the Spirit carries it
out. So you see the Godhead as one working in harmony, like a
symphony."
jt:
Jesus said "I and the Father are one and it is written that he was
given the spirit without measure" I used the word symphony as an
object lesson since this is the way it appears to me. I am not
writing legalese or doctrine which you seem to interpret it as - nor
do I come to TT as a "teacher" professer. I am an ordinary every day
believer sharing who I am in Christ. For this I take responsibility
- but not for your wild flights of fancy Bill.
Debbie wrote
this to you: "When talking about God or what he is
saying to us in the Bible, I am sure I use terms which are not in
any translation or manuscript of Scripture." As do
you, Judy, as witnessed above. Hence, with her, why do you not
also "find it strange and arbitrary to make a
rule of avoiding doing so"? You do not apply your own rules to yourself.
jt: I
don't recall ever having made a rule Bill. The scriptures
themselves say that if any man speaks he should speak as the oracles
of God. If you are going to represent Him then you should say
what He says about himself. Your doctrine of
"perichoresis" is alien to anything I have read in
scripture. Where do you find this dance and
relationship? The Godhead is one - so is God dancing with
Himself?
And as I said before, nor ought
you have to. The problem here is not with the language you
use; it is with your unreasonable expectation concerning the
language of others, whether it be mine or Debbie's or anyone
else's. In other words, you need to change your
standards. They are untenable --
not even you can meet them.
jt: It
is God's standard for those who claim to represent Him
publicly. What I am doing here is my own private
testimony. You are constantly quoting doctrines and teachings
constructed by men that have little to do with what God says
about Himself and when anyone questions them it makes you
angry.
And so, the question is, are you going to continue to
skirt the issue, or are you going to drop the attack on others, take
responsibility for your actions and change your standards?
jt: The
attack is all in your head Bill. Noone is immune to questioning on
this list - you should know that by now and if what you are holding
on to is truth then you don't need to fear, it will
stand.
Bill
(By the way, DaveH and G: I am preparing responses to
your requests. I will get them out when this conflict is resolved --
if, that is, it can be resolved)
|
