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Judy writes > Not to me Lance and I
still can't figure out why Bill would be offended since he does
in fact have a Calvinistic
bent only I understand that he doesn't think that everyday Calvinism correctly
interprets the writings of
Calvin.
bt: Fair enough, Judy, then I know that you will not be offended when I
say that you, being a good Augustinian,
will have a difficult time letting go of your "spiritual death" doctrine;
this even though the terminology as such
is no where to be found in the Scriptures.
jt: You are correct that I am not offended
that you say this - However you are wrong in that I have never read
or
studied Augustine so if he and I are saying
the same thing it has to be unintentional... also this can be
found
in scripture. What kind of a death do
you suppose God is talking about in Genesis 2:17?
Judy > Who has time to wade through all this
theological stuff?
You had better, Judy; that is, if you are going to label people with
theological jargon.
jt: I don't care to wade through it or to
label people who are entangled with it for that matter. My priority
is in knowing truth according to God's Word so that the counterfeit
becomes clear right up front.
Judy > Why not work at a correct
understanding of scripture itself?
I have no problem with that whatsoever. Remember, it is you who labeled
me a Calvinist. And it is I who responded
to your question with a long list of scriptural support.
jt: I don't believe your list is supported by
scripture in balance and context. You are "proof texting"
or using
scripture to support what you already believe
- rather than seeking God's wisdom in His Word with an open
heart.
Judy > We do not need
another mediator.
And neither is anyone claiming we
do.
jt: When ppl quote other theologians more
than they quote God's Word their actions speak for themselves
because
where a mans treasure is, there his heart is
also.
Judy > So now Bill wants to change the subject to Salvation which for him is more
Calvinism - whether pure or tainted -
it's still Calvin. jt
How would you know this? I suggest a long and
detailed study on your part, Judy, before you seek to label me as anything,
including a Calvinist.
jt: I don't need a long and detailed study of your teachings Bill
- you have admitted as much to Gary recently.
I am very content being called a Christian, thank you
very much. Yes, I am open minded enough to appreciate Calvin for
several of his contributions (things of which
you know very little), but I am not a "Calvinist" -- and this too for reasons
about
which you are ignorant.
jt: I don't mind being ignorant about what is unimportant and
unnecessary so long as I stay in fellowship with
the Lord and am able to hear His
voice.
And, yes, I changed the subject line to "Salvation,"
because that seemed to better fit the topic at hand, which is salvation.
Do you have a problem with that? If so why? And if
not, then why even bring it up? Because without some clarification
from you, it appears to me to be nothing more than
a means through which to get in another dig. Bill
jt: Yes I do have a problem with going from one subject to
another without ever resolving anything - with you
all the while accusing and
ascribing to me evil intentions. Who in their
right mind would choose to submit
themselves to this? judyt
To the extent that perception is reality, would
you acknowledge that this statement of yours (below) might be
perceived as intending ill though you may have
not so intended?
I know a good Calvinist will deny it
but . . .
Judy when you are ready to discuss this
without the smears and stereotypes, you
can let me know.
Bill
jt: JD, since God does not
change and is the same yesterday, today, and forever
Why would it make a difference
when the examples are written?
bt: Because God does
change the way in which he deals with his people, Judy.
For example, "God, who at various times and in various ways
spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in
these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed
heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds." Do
you see any significance here to your argument above?
jt: No I don't. I am
speaking of God's standards and they have not changed any more
than he has. . . .
bt: Interesting. Perhaps you
should have said so. Please tell me, Do you deny that God
has changed the ways he has spoken to us? and the way in which
he reveals himself to us? and the way in which he relates to
us?
jt: He still speaks
through prophets - today it is the testimony of Jesus who is the
prophet promised in Deut 18:15. He is now our Great High Priest
and shall be the soon coming King.
bt: I do. Firstly, God has changed the way he speaks to his
people and, secondly, in this same Son, he has changed the way in which he relates
to them -- now as Father by way of their adoption in
him. And so it does make a difference
when the examples are written.
jt: Why? The
testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy - the same Spirit
that spoke through the prophets.
bt: If there is no
difference, Judy, why then do you suppose the preacher to the
Hebrews makes a point of distinguishing between the "ways" in
which God has spoken in times past and the way in which in these
last days he has "spoken to us by His Son"? I would suggest it
does make a very big difference, in that "neither knoweth
any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son
will reveal him."
jt: Because no prophet
up until then had been identified as "God's only begotten
son" - even so he did not speak his own words or do his own
thing. He came to do the will of the
Father.
God "kicked" Adam et al out of the
garden for a very good reason: "lest he put out his hand
and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever."
It was not to exclude Adam from the "kingdom" that he kicked him
out of the garden, but to insure that he and his posterity
might be included in it on that day when the Son through whom he
had created the worlds, would become the Head of all things, the
Second Adam, in whom all things consist, which is precisely
what took place many thousands of years later.
Really? So you know for
sure that the first Adam made it in spite of
himself?
BT: Think about it: What was the
significance of God clothing Adam and Woman with
the bloodied hide of an animal? Is this something
Adam did, or is it something God did "in spite" of that which
Adam had done in attempting to clothe himself? If you want to
put it in those terms, Judy, then, yes, I think we all make it
"in spite" of ourselves.
jt: To cover their shame
and to teach them that without the shedding of blood there
is no remission of sin.
bt: Hence Paul could write: "He has
delivered us from the power of darkness and
conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son
of His love, in whom we have redemption
through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He
is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things
were created that are in heaven and
that are on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All
things were created through Him and for
Him. And He is before all things, and in
Him all things consist. He
is also head of the body, the church; and He
is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
that in all things He might have the
preeminence. For it pleased the Father
that in Him all the fullness should
dwell, and by Him to reconcile
all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things
in heaven, having made peace through the blood
of His cross. Bill
Can we agree that the
above is written post resurrection and that it speaks of the
"resurrected Christ" - the one described in Revelation
1:11-18?
bt: Yes, we can. And can we also
agree that the verbs pertaining to
this risen One are written, not in a future tense, as if
these were things which would take place later on, or
things which could take
place if certain conditions were
met, but in the present and past
tenses -- meaning that these things were already
true at the time of their writing?
jt: They are true by
faith but still conditional and remember the writer is
addressing the church, ecclesia, called out ones. I know a
good Calvinist will deny it but it is possible not only to fall
from grace but also to have ones name blotted out of the book of
life.
bt: And tell me, Judy, does that
not have any bearing on the way in which we ought to consider
the things you write below?
jt: I have a problem with
the way you run everything together as though it were a done
deal - like some kind of impersonal logical formula because
by doing this you completely ignore all the "ifs,
ands, and buts" in between which are also an important part of
the written record.
jt..
jt: It doesn't change
reality. After all there have been promises from Abraham
on yet look at how Israel blew it so many times and look at how many of
them perished along the way. To walk by faith is a good
thing and
fear of the Lord is good. To walk in presumption is not
...
JD, since God does not change and is
the same yesterday, today, and forever
Why would it make a difference when
the examples are written? We are the ones who do the
changing.
He stays the same.
It is of note to me that your examples do not include
the New Covenant family of God.
I rest my case. JD From:
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John wrote:
> But God does not kick us out of the family
> -- we leave.
This is true in some cases, such as the prodigal son, but God also kicks
people out who he does not want to be there. If God can kick Lucifer out,
and if he can kick the angels that sinned out, and if he can kick Adam out
of the garden, etc., well, we have a pretty clear picture that God kicks
people out despite their desire to be in his kingdom.
Luke 13:24-28
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will
seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the
door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord,
Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not
whence ye are:
(26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
and thou hast taught in our streets.
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from
me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God,
and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 7:19-23
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast
into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:8-13
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps
are gone out.
(9) But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us
and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were
ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the
Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:29-46
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have
abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he
hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall
be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the
left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed
of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of
the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed
thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye
have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did
not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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