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So predictable you are Lance,
Where you lack understanding you resort to
ridicule. jt
Correspondence from comedy central below so, read
at your own risk.Judy: are you certain you're not related to Roseanne Roseanna
Danna? I could have sworn that she too attended BSF in Virginia. Hmmmmmm? You
sound so much alike!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: July 05, 2005 14:34
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Apologetic for
the eternal sonship of Christ
Judy writes > Not to me Lance and
I still can't figure out why Bill would be offended since he does
in fact have a Calvinistic bent only I understand that he doesn't think
that everyday Calvinism correctly
interprets the
writings of Calvin.
bt: Fair enough, Judy, then I know that you will not be offended when
I say that you, being a good Augustinian,
will have a difficult time letting go of your "spiritual death"
doctrine; this even though the terminology as such
is no where to be found in the Scriptures.
jt: You are correct that I am not
offended that you say this - However you are wrong in that I have
never read or
studied Augustine so if he and I are
saying the same thing it has to be unintentional... also this can be
found
in scripture. What kind of a death
do you suppose God is talking about in Genesis 2:17?
Judy > Who has time to wade through all this
theological stuff?
You had better, Judy; that is, if you are going to label people with
theological jargon.
jt: I don't care to wade through it or to
label people who are entangled with it for that matter. My priority
is in knowing truth according to God's Word so that the
counterfeit becomes clear right up front.
Judy > Why not work at a correct
understanding of scripture itself?
I have no problem with that whatsoever. Remember, it is you who
labeled me a Calvinist. And it is I who responded
to your question with a long list of scriptural support.
jt: I don't believe your list is
supported by scripture in balance and context. You are "proof texting"
or using
scripture to support what you already
believe - rather than seeking God's wisdom in His Word with an open
heart.
Judy > We do not need
another mediator.
And neither is anyone
claiming we do.
jt: When ppl quote other theologians more
than they quote God's Word their actions speak for themselves
because
where a mans treasure is, there his heart
is also.
Judy > So now Bill wants
to change the subject to Salvation which for
him is more Calvinism - whether pure or
tainted -
it's still Calvin. jt
How would you know this? I suggest a long and
detailed study on your part, Judy, before you seek to label me as
anything,
including a Calvinist.
jt: I don't need a long and detailed study of your teachings
Bill - you have admitted as much to Gary recently.
I am very content being called a Christian, thank
you very much. Yes, I am open minded enough to appreciate Calvin for
several of his contributions (things of
which you know very little), but I am not a "Calvinist" -- and this too
for reasons about
which you are ignorant.
jt: I don't mind being ignorant about what is unimportant and
unnecessary so long as I stay in fellowship with
the Lord and am able to hear His
voice.
And, yes, I changed the subject line to
"Salvation," because that seemed to better fit the topic at hand, which is
salvation.
Do you have a problem with that? If so why? And
if not, then why even bring it up? Because without some clarification
from you, it appears to me to be nothing more
than a means through which to get in another
dig. Bill
jt: Yes I do have a problem with going from one subject to
another without ever resolving anything - with you
all the while accusing and
ascribing to me evil intentions. Who in their
right mind would choose to submit
themselves to this?
judyt
To the extent that perception is reality,
would you acknowledge that this statement of yours (below) might be
perceived as intending ill though you may
have not so intended?
I know a good Calvinist will deny
it but . . .
Judy when you are ready to discuss
this without the smears and stereotypes, you
can let me know.
Bill
jt: JD, since God does not
change and is the same yesterday, today, and forever
Why would it make a
difference when the examples are written?
bt: Because God does
change the way in which he deals with his people,
Judy. For example, "God, who at various times and in various
ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the
prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His
Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom
also He made the worlds." Do you see any significance here
to your argument above?
jt: No I don't. I am
speaking of God's standards and they have not changed any
more than he has. . . .
bt: Interesting. Perhaps you
should have said so. Please tell me, Do you deny that
God has changed the ways he has spoken to us? and the way in
which he reveals himself to us? and the way in which he
relates to us?
jt: He still speaks
through prophets - today it is the testimony of Jesus who is
the prophet promised in Deut 18:15. He is now our Great High
Priest and shall be the soon coming
King.
bt: I do. Firstly,
God has changed the way he speaks to his
people and, secondly, in this same Son, he has changed the way in which
he relates to them -- now as Father by way
of their adoption in him. And so it does
make a difference when the examples are written.
jt: Why?
The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy - the same
Spirit that spoke through the prophets.
bt: If there is no
difference, Judy, why then do you suppose the preacher to
the Hebrews makes a point of distinguishing between the
"ways" in which God has spoken in times past and the way in
which in these last days he has "spoken to us by His Son"? I
would suggest it does make a very big difference, in
that "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and
he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
jt: Because no
prophet up until then had been identified as "God's
only begotten son" - even so he did not speak his own words
or do his own thing. He came to do the will of the
Father.
God "kicked" Adam et al out of
the garden for a very good reason: "lest he put out his
hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live
forever." It was not to exclude Adam from the "kingdom" that
he kicked him out of the garden, but to insure that he
and his posterity might be included in it on that day when
the Son through whom he had created the worlds, would become
the Head of all things, the Second Adam, in whom all
things consist, which is precisely what took place many
thousands of years later.
Really? So you know
for sure that the first Adam made it in spite of
himself?
BT: Think about it: What was
the significance of God clothing Adam and Woman with
the bloodied hide of an animal? Is this
something Adam did, or is it something God did "in spite" of
that which Adam had done in attempting to clothe himself? If
you want to put it in those terms, Judy, then, yes, I think
we all make it "in spite" of ourselves.
jt: To cover their
shame and to teach them that without the shedding of
blood there is no remission of sin.
bt: Hence Paul could write: "He
has delivered us from the power of darkness
and conveyed us into the kingdom of the
Son of His love, in whom we
have redemption through His blood, the
forgiveness of sins. He is the image
of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. For by Him all things were
created that are in heaven and
that are on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for
Him. And He is before all things, and
in Him all things consist. He
is also head of the body, the church; and
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the
dead, that in all things He might have
the preeminence. For it pleased the
Father that in Him all the fullness should
dwell, and by Him to
reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether
things on earth or things in heaven, having made
peace through the blood of His cross. Bill
Can we agree that
the above is written post resurrection and that it speaks of
the "resurrected Christ" - the one described in Revelation
1:11-18?
bt: Yes, we can. And can we
also agree that the verbs
pertaining to this risen One are written, not in a
future tense, as if these were things which would take
place later on, or things which could
take place if certain conditions were
met, but in the present and past
tenses -- meaning that these things were already
true at the time of their writing?
jt: They are true by
faith but still conditional and remember the writer is
addressing the church, ecclesia, called out ones. I
know a good Calvinist will deny it but it is possible not
only to fall from grace but also to have ones
name
blotted out of the book of life.
bt: And tell me, Judy, does
that not have any bearing on the way in which we ought to
consider the things you write below?
jt: I have a problem
with the way you run everything together as though it were a
done deal - like some kind of impersonal logical formula
because by doing this you completely ignore all
the "ifs, ands, and buts" in between which are also an
important part of the written
record. jt..
jt: It doesn't
change reality. After all there have been promises
from Abraham on yet look at how Israel blew it so many times and look
at how many of them perished along the way. To walk by
faith is a good thing and fear of the Lord is good. To
walk in presumption is not ...
JD, since God does not change and
is the same yesterday, today, and forever
Why would it make a difference
when the examples are written? We are the ones who
do the changing.
He stays the same.
It is of note to me that your examples do not
include the New Covenant family of
God.
I rest my case.
JD From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John wrote:
> But God does not kick us out of the family
> -- we leave.
This is true in some cases, such as the prodigal son, but God also kicks
people out who he does not want to be there. If God can kick Lucifer out,
and if he can kick the angels that sinned out, and if he can kick Adam out
of the garden, etc., well, we have a pretty clear picture that God kicks
people out despite their desire to be in his kingdom.
Luke 13:24-28
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will
seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the
door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord,
Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not
whence ye are:
(26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
and thou hast taught in our streets.
(27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from
me, all ye workers of iniquity.
(28) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God,
and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 7:19-23
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast
into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.
Matthew 25:8-13
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps
are gone out.
(9) But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us
and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were
ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(13) Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the
Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:29-46
(29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have
abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he
hath.
(30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall
be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the
left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed
of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of
the world:
(35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed
thee?
(39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye
have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did
not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous
into life eternal.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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