On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Ep 2;1 And
you hath he quickened, who
WERE dead in trespasses and
> sins
>
>
Quickened as in made ALIVE those that were DEAD....
>
>
problem is so many were never made alive
>
> --- Bill Taylor
<
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > That's a fine conjecture, Izzy. But it is
only that. Yours is not
> a
> > definitive answer. There
may also be other ways to address and
> > understand this
statement. I am simply attempting to demonstrate
> that
>
> you are calling upon a doctrine to explain that which is not
>
stated
> > explicitly. If you want to call this a "doctrine of
men," then
> that
> > is fine. If you want to call it the
God's honest true, you can do
> > that, too -- as long as you
realize that it is conjecture either
> way.
> >
>
> Bill
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: ShieldsFamily
> > To:
[email protected]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:43 AM
>
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
> >
> >
> > I understand your viewpoint.
However I don't know how else I
> would
> > describe the
lost-even Jesus said "Let the dead (obviously not
> > physically,
but spiritually) bury the dead." izzy
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Bill
> Taylor
> > Sent: Monday,
July 18, 2005 10:30 PM
> > To:
[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
> >
> >
> >
> > I
agree that there is a possibility that two people can come to
> >
similar conclusions without the necessity of collaboration, but I
>
> find it highly unlikely that they would call their doctrine by
the
> > same name and this when the words themselves are not
found in the
> > Scriptures.
> >
>
>
> >
> > Moreover,
one would have to have received her theology in a cave
> not
to have heard of "spiritual death" on many occasions throughout
>
> her Christian experience. This doctrine is one of the most
>
commonly
> > touted beliefs in the church -- thanks to Augustine
and the
> > tremendous impact he has had on Christendom.
>
>
> >
> >
>
> I am very content to believe that Judy did not know that
> Augustine
> > is the one who first articulated this
belief, but I am reluctant
> to
> > accept that she came
to it on her own. It is far too popular a
> > teaching for that
to have happened. As with the rest of us, I am
> > confident that
she too has heard this language since her earliest
> > experience
with Christianity. And so I rather suspect that she has
> > been
taught this doctrine as if it were right there in the Bible.
> >
Thus it functions as an a priori in her beliefs.
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: ShieldsFamily
> >
> > To:
[email protected]
> >
> > Sent: Monday, July 18,
2005 9:54 PM
> >
> > Subject:
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
> >
>
>
> >
>
> I was thinking of when people assume that jt
or someone else
> got
> > their doctrines from someone
else when perhaps they didn't. Just
> > because a teaching
is "out there" doesn't mean it necessarily
> > affected someone
who believes along the same lines. Would you
> agree?
>
> iz
> >
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Bill
> Taylor
> >
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:52 PM
> >
To:
[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
> >
> >
>
>
> > Yeah, I get your drift. But I
am not so dishonest as to claim
> > this is how it happened in my
case.
> >
> >
>
>
> > Bill
> >
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From:
ShieldsFamily
> >
>
> To:
[email protected]
> >
> > Sent:
Monday, July 18, 2005 9:38 PM
> >
>
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
> >
>
>
> >
>
> Just a note: If someone learns a
truth from the Lord via the
> > scriptures or direct revelation
from the Holy Spirit, might not
> they
> > also be in
agreement (without even knowing it) with someone else
> who
>
> learned and taught that same truth in previous generations? If
so,
> > that does not mean that the first one who learned it
imparted it
> to
> > the one who learned it later, does
it? That also does not mean the
> > second person who learned it
owes anything to the first person.
> And
> > it does
not mean the first one who learned it was an "authority"
>
for
> > the second one, who might never have even heard anything
about the
> > first one. One can't just assume that because
a "famous" person
> > wrote about a certain doctrine that this
has affected someone else
> > who may have the same/similar
doctrine. Get my drift? izzy
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Bill
> Taylor
>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:50
PM
> > To:
[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
> >
>
>
> >
>
> David writes > I
don't think I have seen anybody tout
> Wesley
> > or Dake
as authoritative,
> >
>
> I suppose in a narrow sense you
are partially correct,
> David. I
> > seem to remember
Judy quoting Dake at length and verbatim, yet she
> > did it
without even so much as a fleeting reference in his
>
direction.
> > Hence I concur with you, in that, while she used
his beliefs
> > authoritatively in her argumentation, she did it
in a way that can
> > hardly be construed as that of touting
him.
> >
> > This
raises some interesting questions, though, concerning
>
what
> > it means to treat another man's beliefs as
"authoritative." Must
> one
> > cite another person, when
using his words, before he or she is
> > complicit in treating
his beliefs as authoritative? I think not,
> but
> > I am
curious what you think. And does one have to cite another's
> >
influence upon her theology, before she has made his beliefs
> >
"authoritative" in her frame of reference? Again, I don't think
>
so,
> > but I am wondering what you think. For example, Judy
espouses a
> > "spiritual death" doctrine, yet refuses to
acknowledge that the
> > doctrine she espouses was first set
forth by Augustine. My
> question
> > is this: Does this
doctrine not govern her thoughts as it relates
> to
> >
the human condition? Stated another way, does it not act
> >
authoritatively in her belief system? I think it does. And this
>
> whether she admits to Augustinian influences or not. But again I
> am
> > wondering what you think.
> >
>
>
> >
>
> Or are you suggesting something
different? Like, for
> instance,
> > if I say, "This is
how it is -- blah, blah, blah," then you might
> say
> >
that there is nothing authoritative about that, because those are
>
> just my own beliefs. But if I say, "Dake or Augustine says this
is
> > how it is -- blah, blah, blah," then you will respond that
I am
> > setting forth Dake's beliefs or Augustine's beliefs as
> authoritative,
> > and that they have now become the
"doctrines of men." Is that how
> it
> > works? What if
they were really Dake's beliefs all along -- and I
> > mean his
words verbatim -- but I just acted as though they were my
> >
own, would that make a difference as far as their "authoritative"
>
> quotient in your estimation?
> >
>
> These are the things that I am
wondering about, because I am
> > trying to understand what makes
the espousal of one man's beliefs
> > more "authoritative," in
your eyes, than the espousal of another
> > man's beliefs. In
fact, I find it rather disturbing that you are
> so
> >
willing to give yourself and others a pass on this, but want to
>
take
> > issue with me concerning Barth and Torrance. The truth
is, I have
> > written very sparingly concerning Barth, although
I do esteem him
> > highly. And I have been very candid
throughout about both my
> > appreciation of Torrance and the
influence he has had upon the
> > formation of my beliefs --
which is indeed quite significant. But
> > David, I want to say,
so what? It is obvious that Wesley has had a
> > similar impact
upon the formation of your beliefs. What's the big
> > deal about
admitting this? Why are you so set on equivocating at
>
this
> > point? I don't get it.
> >
>
> David writes > some on
TruthTalk do believe in doctrines of
> > men. Do you
agree?
> >
> > Yes,
David, I do. But I would not agree that this is prima
> > facie a
negative thing.
> >
>
> Bill
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message
-----
> > From: "David
Miller" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> To: <
[email protected]>
>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:59
AM
> > Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
> >
> >
>
> > JD wrote:
>
> > >>> Not one person
on this site believes in
> >
> >>> "doctrines of men."
>
> >
>
> > David Miller wrote:
>
> > >> I hope that you
allow that some of us have a different
>
> > >> perspective on this
point. Some here tout Joseph Smith
>
> > >> while others tout
Barth and Torrance.
> >
>
> > > Bill
wrote:
> > > > ... and
others Wesley and Dake. What's your point?
>
> >
>
> > I don't think I have seen
anybody tout Wesley or Dake as
> > authoritative, at
>
> > least not on the level of
Joseph Smith, Barth, or
> Torrance,
> > but in any
>
> case,
>
> > my point is that some on
TruthTalk do believe in doctrines
> of
> > men. Do
you
> > > agree?
>
> >
>
> > Peace be with you.
>
> > David Miller.
>
> >
>
> > ----------
>
> > "Let your speech be always
with grace, seasoned with salt,
> > that you may
>
> know how you ought to answer
every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>
>
http://www.InnGlory.org>
> >
>
> > If you do not want to
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> an
> > email
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> >
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> > you have
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> > friend who wants to
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>
>
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>
> >
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
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>
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>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with
grace, seasoned with salt, that you
> may know how you ought to
answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>
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