David, does it not fit well with your THEOLOGY of Perfection? You therefore accept the PECCABILITY of Christ also?
--- Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Judy wrote: > ... I am curious about you. Why do you have to have a Jesus born > into the same sin, frailty, and weakness as us? > > I don't "have to have it" this way. I learned this from the > Scriptures. > I already gave you some passages. Here are a few others: > > Hebrews 5:7-9 > (7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and > supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to > save > him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (8) Though he were a > Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; (9) > And > being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto > all > them that obey him; > > Notice the phrase here, "in the days of his flesh." This was a > significant event. Compare this with the passages I already shared > in > the last post. > > jt: Maybe I don't read as much into it as you do David. To me "in > the > days of his flesh" means before the cross and we know when he offered > up > these prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears - in the > garden of Gethsemane. If I knew > that was before me it would be that and more. > > > Consider the next one too: > Hebrews 2:9-18 > (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for > the > suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the > grace > of God should taste death for every man. (10) For it became him, for > whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many > sons > unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through > sufferings. (11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are > sanctified > are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them > brethren, > (12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst > of > the church will I sing praise unto thee. (13) And again, I will put > my > trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath > given > me. (14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and > blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through > death > he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; > > (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their > lifetime > subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of > angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (17) Wherefore in > all > things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he > might be > a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to > make > reconciliation for the sins of the people. (18) For in that he > himself > hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are > tempted. > > Just read this Scripture, Judy. How can you miss it? Jesus was made > a > little lower than the angels, why? To experience mortality! To > experience death. To be made like us in every way. To be made > perfect > through sufferings, the same way we are perfected. Look at verse 11, > "both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of > one." > This is the reason he calls us brethren. > > jt: Remember David that this is written AFTER the cross ie "he that > sanctifieth and they who are sanctified" - New Birth - Holy Spirit - > we > are one in the same way that He and the Father were one during His > earthly ministry. > > He was made just like us. Look at verse 14. He says, "as the > children > are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself > likewise took part of the same." > > jt: Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitations as > the > ones we have only he was not "just like us" David. > The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit > without > measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothing > like that going on. His mind didn't have to be renewed - at the age > of > 12yrs He knew more than the teachers at the temple and there is no > record > that he was ever physically sick. > > The reason given here is the same as in Romans 8:3 where he says that > he > was made in the likeness of SINFUL flesh. > That he might have power over the bad aspects of the flesh, which > include > death and the law of sin and death that resides in the flesh. > > jt: David I still do not accept that "likeness" is same as the real > thing, or even that it was necessary that He have the same weakYes He > condemned sin in the flesh by fulfilling the Law in his own life > following which He lay down His physical life for us on a sinner's > cross > so that ultimately He became an eternal sacrifice. If He came with > the > same flesh weakness that we have inherited he wouldn't have kept the > law > either. Think about it. Jesus living in Romans 7 along with Paul. > > Then read verse 16. How much clearer can he be? He took on him the > SEED > of Abraham. His FLESH was descended from the seed of Abraham. There > it > is right there in Scripture. Inescapable. > > jt: The seed of Abraham is not flesh it is spiritual. Isaac is the > seed > of Promise and Christ is the fulfillment of that promise. > Ishmael is the fleshly seed and they are still warring against one > another just like the Spirit and flesh do in us. > > Muslims want to reject this view. Jews want to reject this view. > EVEN > SOME CHRISTIANS want to reject this view. The idea > of Christ being come in the flesh seems anathema to those who hate > the > flesh and see God as far removed from it. > > jt: I don't hate the flesh David. I believe we are fearfully and > wonderfully made. However, we need to call things what God calls > them. > I am no fan of Augustine or Calvin; they had some light along with a > lot > of error but who wants to stay camped there? > > What fellowship has light with darkness? > > jt: Both spiritual concepts the body isn't darkness, it makes no > decisions - it does what we tell it to do. > > How can God Almighty become flesh like us? Impossible? Sounds like > it, > but no, it is a great mystery that one can understand if we press > through > to grasp it. > > jt: Oh no David. Here we go with the mystery. This is a favorite > ploy > of those following the RCC Church Fathers and their teachings. Every > time they get in a mess they call it a mystery. > > Judy wrote: > Are you also holding to this incarnational Athanasian concept or is > it > your background in biology? > > No, Judy, I did not get this understanding from Athanasia. I got it > from > reading the Bible. I will grant you that my biology background has > helped me tremendously to understand how the flesh is the source of > selfish behavior in ways that probably surpasses the apostle Paul. > > jt: Not the body by itself David; flesh in the sense of soul or mind, > will, emotions. > > At the same time, I am amazed that Paul understood these things as he > did > without having the understanding of biology that has been unveiled > within > our generation. Regardless of my biology background, these things are > understandable without any of that. The Bible teaches it. That is > all > we need. I wonder why you are resistent to the idea. For someone > who > clearly wants to stay clear of Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, you > buy > into it hook, line, and sinker on this issue. Why? > > jt: I am definitely not buying into anything Augustine or Calvin were > teaching about all this. I see spiritual death happening to A&E in > the > garden but what I am talking about is not the same thing Augustine > promoted or Calvin after him... and about this idea of Jesus being > our > brother. I see this as a post Resurrection truth - that is, after > we > have received the Promise of the Father and we are one with Him > because > of the Spirit. This is the whole idea of the New Creation in Him. > We > reckon the old man dead - put off the old and put on the new. All > this > talk about everyone's old man (the whole world) being assumed and > resurrected is worse than the immaculate conception and just as > heretical. > > Perhaps it is your desire to make Jesus unique as a person? > Recognizing > that he is flesh does not have to interfere with his uniqueness. He > was > unique, just as Isaac was unique from Ishmael. Jesus was God > manifest in > the flesh, not some alien flesh, not the flesh of pre-fallen man, but > human flesh descended from Abraham and David. This is what the Bible > teaches. > > jt: To me this negates God's holiness which is what separated Him > from > humanity. I know on occasion He spoke with ppl > such as Job, Abraham, and the prophets but look at all they had to go > through to approach him when he was Father/Husband > to Israel, all the washings. It took them three days to prepare. > Think > about Isaiah the first thing out of his mouth in God's presence "I am > a > man of unclean lips" So are we David - because we have a heart > problem. > Jesus didn't, in fact all of His words were Spirit and Life. He > spoke no > death at all. This can not be said of us. Not any of us. So I'm > sorry > I just can not > see Him the same way that you do; because to me there are some huge > issues. > > If we were to do genetic testing on his flesh, we would find him > related > to Mary his mother, and also related to all the ancestors that > Matthew so > carefully outlines for us. Why would you find this difficult to > accept? > Perhaps you should begin, one by one, to mention some of your > objections. > If we can answer your every objection, then maybe you could consider > afresh what the Bible is teaching on this subject. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
