Finally. I was running out of bait !!!
In John 3, Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, speaks in terms of "ye must be born again." These words are nowhere to be found in the evangelistic presentations of those who proclaimed the "good news." That is what I was referencing. Why do the evangelists NOT use these very words? Why is there no sinners prayer? Why is there no reference to "born again Christians" in the bible? Could it be that those who followed Christ saw His wording in a very different light than 21st century American evangels? Go into the Christian bookstores and count the number of pages that speak of "born again Christians" and compare that to the number of times you find that particular _expression_ in the pages of NT
literature. Here is one of my hermeneutical rules -- opinion to be sure -- but a good rule, nonetheless: Our theology should express itself in the same thought sequence as that found in the biblical message. If I am "right" on baptism, for example, my terminology will be very similar to the wording found in the NT. More than that, if my theology is "right," you will hear me saying the very things spoken of in the Message. My personal heuristic endeavor makes this "rule" a cornerstone.
"Born again Christian" and "sinners prayer" are not found in the message. Might these concepts be present, particular wording aside? Yes, of course - therein is the debate. "Trinity" expresses a biblical point of view, for example; "Godhead" does not IMO. When I say "trinity," something comes to mind ("three"something or other). When I say "Godhead" I have nothing ..... so I prefer " nature" or "essence" as a translation.
"You must be born again" not being found in evangelistic presentations causes me to consider whether the evangelists saw these very words used in John 3 differently than you and I see them. In fact, only a part of the 21st century church really uses this _expression_ very much at all. The phrase does much more than speak of discipleship. It is most often used to describe a sectarian point of view. I am a born again Christian and you are a, well, a Methodist !! "Yes, but is he a BORN AGAIN Christian?" Ever heard that one? And so I say, "born again Christian," "ye must be born again" as we use these expressions today is nowhere to be found.
Christ defines new birth in terms of a spirit presence already a part of every man and woman in the world. In John 3:19, Jesus speaks of the "light coming into this world." This term in this passage, may have additional meaning, but I believe this "light" includes the notion of Jesus as the Light of the world.
With that in mind, verse 21 becomes interestingly important (at least to me.) "But he who does the truth, comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Jesus speaks to Nicodemus of new birth and implies that such is possible right then, right there. Nicky does not have to wait until the modern church starts using (read:misusing) the _expression_ to speak of things other than what was taught to Nickalus. This "new birth" occurs when one realizes the blessing of God's spiritual presence in his/her life! The reconciliation of all things put the Holy Spirit of God back where it belongs -- in the heart of man. When we acknowledge this reconciliatory blessing, we are born anew --- we begin living our lives with an inward "oh, NOW I get it!" ringing in our ears!
We are ALREADY a part of His family. Condemnation is not living without God -- rather, it is refusing to allow the God within to have dominion over us. In John 3:20 is the practice of evil to the exclusion of the Light and a subsequent denial of the God within (by implication). Philip 2:12-13 makes it clear that God is to be credited for even our will to do good!!! Denying this, pretending to live our lives apart from God (something we actually CANNOT DO) WILL DESTROY US BECAUSE such activity is impossible. Huh??
How does it destroy us? Well, try walking through a wall, on air, on the ceiling. Try flying by waving the arms and jumping off tall buildings. Such actions will eventually destroy the individual BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPOSSIBLE CONSIDERATIONS in and of themselves. Ditto "living life apart from God." Too late. HE IS ALREADY THERE. God is a part of each of us vis the reconciliation of Christ on in the flesh, on the cross. To pretend otherwise is tantamount to separating our body from our heart and expecting to live.
Jd
-----Original Message-----
From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:05:25 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Obviously your Bible translation left out Jesus? conversation with Nicodemus. izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:31 AM
To:[email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:31 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Some questions: Why is it that the "sinner's prayer" is nowhere to be found in scripture or even hinted at? Why is it that the phrase "born again Christian" is nowhere used in the biblical message and can only be established as we justify several passages of scripture? Why is it that no evangelist in biblical lit gives the command "ye must be born again?"
JD
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:14:12 -0400
Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
How terribly sad - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously under conviction of the Spirit?
You are judging him by "outward appearances" Bill. You can't know what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
a great showing after the flesh or some may just live in quiet desperation. I would have taken this dear man seriously
enough to go over the scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some
false assurance.
A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this
it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help.....
Bill writes:
Yes, in Christ in his resurrection, BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can be a profound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord. I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ.
I watched a saintly ninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he did not know for sure if he had been "born again." He had grown up in the church and could not remember a time that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and started being a born again be
liever. We did that to him -- not the L ord.
