The prison is in lock-down today -- some kind
of weapons violation; hence no one goes in and no one comes out. And
so, for those who may be wondering, I am at home for the time being
and not at work.
Bill wrote > The cross stands
as that which gave them life.
jt: The cross always represents death.
judyt
Judy, you are the one who is constantly ridiculing others for referring to
the Christ event (the life, death, resurrection, and ascension) rather than
to "the cross." If I had said instead that the Christ event stands as that
which gave them life, what would your response have been? You are being
ridiculous.
jt: I try to exact the same scrutiny on myself and I
want to say what the Bible says. the 2nd death is described in Revelation 21:8
and is different from what Jesus speaks of in Luke 9:60.
Judy, I've already clarified this. Why the obstinance? Once again, AND
PLEASE TRY TO FOLLOW ALONG WITH ME, I am not distinguishing between the first
death and the second death as mentioned in Revelation. Let go of that fallacious
idea. I am distinguishing between the two deaths mentioned in Jesus' statement:
the first time he uses the word "dead" and the second time he uses the word
"dead." The first reference to "dead" has to be understood as speaking to a
different situation than the second reference to "dead." The first
reference is a metaphor; the second reference is literal. You plug in
"spiritual" to satisfy the metaphor, as did Augustine and many since
him. BUT unlike Augustine, you then treat "spiritual death"
itself as a metaphor and not as a literal spiritual death. I will quote you
again: "This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are
physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit
both in the last day." Hence, by your own definition you treat "spiritual
death" as a metaphor which speaks to something else. Now, you don't have to
admit this, but if you won't, why don't you just drop it? You are making a fool
of yourself.
Please just stop being so obstinate about this -- either that or go
ahead and embrace Augustine's position and treat your doctrine of spiritual
death in the same way as he: that spiritual death means that "their" spirit
is literally dead. Then at least you will not have to concede that
spiritual death is metaphorical of something else. If you won't do this, then do
whatever you want: just leave my comments completely out of your
considerations.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:23
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death
jt: Bill, I don't see it as ridicule to say what
the Bible says.
The Bible doesn't say anything about spiritual death. That is something
you are adding. Why don't you treat yourself with the scrutiny you exact on
others? Why don't you say what the Bible says?
jt: I try to exact the same scrutiny on myself and
I want to say what the Bible says. the 2nd death is described in Revelation
21:8 and is different from what Jesus speaks of in Luke
9:60. Only
disciples were being called to follow the son at this point (Matt 8:22, Luke
9:60) -
Whom was Jesus calling when he said, "Follow me,
and let the dead bury their own dead"? Do you deny that he was calling this
person to follow him?
jt: He said this to one of his
disciples - they are the ones who travelled with him for 3 1/2yrs; he did
send out the 70 to do the work of the ministry but ppl were not called and
invited to His Kingdom until the Promise was sent on the day of Pentecost
because the covenant was not ratified until there was a death.
And were only certain Jews supposed to love
God with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and the rest
were exempt? What do you suppose this Jew was not doing when he
refused to follow God's Son? You don't have to answer these questions, Judy;
they are rhetorical: one of those confusing linguistic constructs. IN OTHER
WORDS, they are so obvious as to not require answers.
jt: They are only obvious in your mind
Bill. Loving God under the Old Covenant was obeying the law of Moses.
The ministry of the Son was teaching about and introducing a "New and Living
Way" available to them upon his death. I
would like to point out that the same _expression_ is used in the parable of
the Prodigal Son who was dead in the pigpen and returned to life after a
change of heart (now is alive). It is also used in Ephesians 2:1 and
in 1 Timothy 5:6.
Judy, you are the one who made a big issue out of
distinguishing things before the cross and after the cross.
jt: Things - having to do with covenants
Bill. Before the cross it was through Moses and then it changed. Do
you have a problem with this??
I simply satisfied your criterion and asked questions
pertaining to a time prior to the cross. Yes, "dead" is used of people on
both sides of the cross. However after the cross it is used in a past tense,
i.e, you were dead.
jt: More accurately "after the New
Birth" In Ephesians 2:1 Paul is addressing the church. the cross
in and of itself did not change the hearts of those who would not receive
God's Word. The ones who received the power to become sons of God
(John 1:12) are the ones who "received Him"
The cross stands as that which gave them life. Bill
jt: The cross always represents death.
judyt
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 7:17
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death
I have not one time claimed that Jesus'
statement pertained to physically dead people burying the dead. This
is your confusion, Judy -- not mine. If you are so base as to draw that
conclusion, how are you competent to draw any conclusions?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 2:57
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
death
Mar 12.30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all
your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your
strength.' This is the first commandment.
I told Izzy that I thought there was a spiritual
element included in Jesus' statement: "Follow me, and let the dead
bury their own dead." But I also told her that I thought it was not
just directed at the spirit aspect of personhood: "those who reject
Christ are doing so with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and
spirit." To which Judy responded with ridicule,
implying instead that Jesus' statement was only in reference
to the spiritual aspect, i.e., it was a reference to spiritual death
and nothing else.*
jt: Bill, I don't see it as
ridicule to say what the Bible says. There is no way a
physically dead person can get out there and dig a hole in order to
bury another physically dead person now is there? In
scripture this concept of death is that of being separated from God because of sin which as I have
been saying is what happened to A&E in the garden. Anything else
is confusion.
Judy, if first
century Jews prior to the cross were called to love God with
all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, what do you
suppose they were not doing when they refused to follow his
Son?
jt: Only
disciples were being called to follow the son at this point (Matt
8:22, Luke 9:60) - Also
I would like to point out that the same _expression_ is used in the
parable of the Prodigal Son who was dead in the pigpen and returned to
life after a change of heart (now is alive). It is also used in
Ephesians 2:1 and in 1 Timothy 5:6.
judyt
Bill
* When He says "death" he means
"death" and since the death Adam experienced that day was not
physical, nor was it alzheimers (brain or soul death). What
do you suppose it was? ... The dead burying their dead is not speaking
of physical or soulish death since they were able to dig a hole and
had presence of mind enough not to let a dead body just lay
around.
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