Blaine has, on more than one occasion, brought up what he said was a fast
growth rate and implyied that this was indicative of the mormon church being
the one true church. I also seem to rememeber it was he that started this
original thread (different subject line) by mentioning the growth rate of
the church. The above subject line reflects an article that Kevin presented
that indicates that the conversion rate may be offset by a low retention
rate. Kevin did not make it up and is not lying, as you have accused.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:30:44 -0700
DAVEH: We are obviously seeing this through different perspectives, John.
When I read Blaine's comments, I see them from the LDS perspective that the
Kingdom has been reestablished and will spread throughout the earth as is
prophesied in latter-day Scripture. I don't (and I'm reasonably sure
Blaine does not either if his LDS background is anything similar to mine)
believe that means that the LDS Church will be either the largest or
continue to be the denomination with the fastest growth rate. I've always
believed that even in the end (by the time the Millennial reign rolls
around) the LDS Church will be relatively small compared to those who
oppose it. To me, Blaine's comments merely reflect that the Lord's Church
is now here and proceeding as prophesied, never to be beaten down (as we
view the Apostasy) again.
From your perspective, you are reading into his comments something
entirely different. You see him saying that because the LDS Church is
(presumably) the fastest growing church it is the True Church. I see no
logic in that at all. Nor do I think that is what Blaine was implying.
For instance, I'm sure Blaine understands just as well as any TTer, that if
I were to start my own church tomorrow, and convert one person to believe
as I do within a year, and then 2 more next year, and then 4 more the
following year.....which should not be too difficult in these weird
times......that it would be relatively easy for my church to have an annual
growth rate of 100%, which would far exceed virtually any modestly sized
church in the world. I could probably get numbers like that for a dozen
years or so. But that certainly would not be an indication that I've got
the true church.
Nor would sheer numbers indicate likewise. We all know the RCC folks
have massive membership numbers, but I dare say there are few if any (and
certainly not Blaine) TTers who would think for a second that that would
imply the RCC is the True Church.
So John........I simply don't think Blaine was trying to make that
argument (that the LDS Church is true because of either its growth rate or
size) as you and Kevin seem to believe. Logically it doesn't make sense.
While there may be some LDS folks who do not think clearly and/or
rationally who might miss the logic of this, but I assume Blaine is a
reasonably intelligent person, and hence I am reading his comments with a
different understanding than you might.
BTW.........Look at the subject line of this thread. I assume Kevin
penned it, but could be wrong. Anyway, it reflects an attitude that I
think Kevin would like other TTers to believe. Why do you suppose he would
want to foster this lie? And....how many TTers (percentage wise) do you
think he has convinced that the LDS Church now has a zero growth rate?
Have you considered that Blaine may have posted the things he did to
counter some of the stuff Kevin posts, rather than to make an argument that
the LDS Church is true because of its size and growth rate?
FWIW....I think LDS folks have a different understanding of the term
*Kingdom of God* than you, John. That does not mean we think your view is
all screwed up, but rather that our view is different because we have a
different understanding based on latter-day revelation.
Regarding your comment.......
*I see many within orthodoxy extending the right hand of fellowship and
willing to consider this church as a denomination of the Larger Church. I
do not see the same consideration coming from the Mormon Church.*
............Interestingly I see it as exactly the opposite. As I see it,
my experience in TT parallels how well the LDS Church fits into the
Protestant world.
Regarding your comment.......
*My concern is this: that these words indicated that Mormonism considers
itself the ONLY (true) Christians. *
.............I simply don't know why you would get that impression from
what either Blaine or I have posted. In fact, I think I have said that is
not correct when it has come up before in TT.
Regarding.......
DAVEH: How many of those do you suppose can be attributed to the RCC birth
rate?
*Considerable -- and in much the same way as Mormon growth rates (?). *
..........Yes, certainly the LDS growth rate is larger due to our birth
rate. As I said in a parallel post tonight, the figures Kevin posted
indicate there are about 100,000 convert baptisms per year by our
missionaries. Yet I believe our Church is growing even faster than that
despite the death rate combined with those who leave the
Church........which leads me to wonder why anybody would think _LDS Church
has ZERO Growth!_ as the subject line of this thread incorrectly implies.
Yet it seems some TTers are pretty proud of their growth rate (was it 3,000
per day) when in fact many of that number may simply be accounted for by
RCC births.........
/The list includes the rapidly growing Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church in America,
Jehovah's Witnesses, and - largest of all - the Roman Catholic Church. /
..........This is from the National Council of Churches. Pretty
interesting, is it not....especially since there must be some TTers who
would like you to believe the LDS Church has a zero growth rate as the
subject line implies.
I would think it would be much more meaningful to know how many new
Protestants there are each day. Does anybody have any figures on that? It
might also be interesting to see how the Protestant Church membership rolls
have held up over the years. If anybody has the time to search the net,
that might be interesting to see.
For instance, the NCC 1998 yearbook shows a decline for three mainline
Protestant Churches....
/Data on the continuing "flattening out" of "mainline" membership losses
and "non-mainline" gains. For example, three mainline bellwethers, the
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), United Church of Christ and United Methodist
Church, all have cut membership losses significantly over the past three
years./
.........Does it make you wonder how they've fared since then?
I found your comment........
DAVEH: Such the RCC folks believe. They just don't quite understand why
you (Protestants) felt the need to leave the nest.
*It had to do with grace verses works salvationism. *
......to be really interesting, John. I would have thought your main
disagreement with them to be based on the authority. The RCC folks believe
in a priesthood authority of the leadership, whereas I understand the
Protestants to believe the authority is in the eyes of the believer. To
me, that pretty much trumps the grace vs salvation distraction.
Regarding......
DAVEH: I don't recall doing much debating with Kevin recently. Perhaps
you are confusing me with someone else, though that hardly seems possible.
*I refer to what has been going on between the two of you over the past
year and half.
*...........Ahhhh, now I understand. I gave up trying to have a reasonable
theological discussion with Kevin some time ago, and I didn't think we ever
had a two sided debate previous to that....which is one reason why I gave
up trying.
Concerning the Apostasy.....
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, John. IF there was not a falling away,
there would be no need for a restitution of all things, as I see it.
*You have kinda of lost me, here. All of us can read about the First
Church in the Book of Acts -- a church full of Jews unwilling to break
with any of the Law, it's requirements and traditions, while, at the same
time, accepting the message of Christ as Son of God. The First Church
could not be any further off base than it was a month after Pentecost Day.
Seeds of dnominationalism are recorded in script no more than 30 years
following Pentecost. What was not effected by this missing of the mark
was the preaching of the gospel of unmerited redemption by the apostles.
That is what changed in the falling away -- and the Mormon Church
certainly did not re-establish that teaching. ; *
........I am surprised that you are somewhat lost on what I was conveying,
since you have a bit of a connection to Mormonism through your
Mother-in-law, if I remember correctly. (Or am I confusing you with
Perry?)
Anyway.......I believe the Bible predicts the Apostasy and Restoration,
and as I see it the LDS Church fulfills that need...so to speak. But
discussing it under this thread is a bit of a tangent, so if you want to
chat about it more....let's start a new piece of paper and discuss it under
a new subject heading. I'll leave it up to you to instigate the discussion
as I'm sure Perry will find a reason to complain IF I introduce the topic.
:-)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* As you read my response, please note the two underlined phrases at the
very beginning. It appears that you missed my parenthetical. *
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
deegan and I are clearly not in the same boat BUT. I do think you are
missing the point he is making on this, DH. *blaine has hung his hat
(_/not entirely/_, of course) on Mormorn growth rate *
DAVEH: I didn't quite see it that way. If Blaine believes that
*/_growth rate alone_/* reflects truth, I'd say he is using some pretty
screwed up logic as well. Perhaps he can clarify what he was saying.
Looking at the posts below in this thread, I was correcting what I
perceived to be outdated material you submitted, and Blaine was updating
the information even more. Relative to these posts, Blaine made no
comment about the relationship between the growth rate and its trueness.
Kevin pulled some quotes from other posts that made it seem like (and
Kevin implied that) Blaine was saying that the LDS Church is true because
of its rapid growth. I don't think that is what Blaine said or implied at
all. But....let's let him respond, as we (you, Kevin and me) have o ur
biases that affect our thinking processes. *Yes, I agree. Blaine
should speak for Blaine, in the final analysis. But, do you see how some
of us hear Blaine saying that growth (to a degree ) is evidence of God's
approval and the ultimate goal (set by God, apparently) that the Mormon
Church (equated to the "kingdom of God") will establish the Kingdom of
God throughout the world is irresistible, i.e.* (Blainer) The figures
don't lie. The rate of growth for the Mormon Church exceeds even the
Moslems in the US. Zion will flourish, and the Kingdom of God will be
established by the Mormon Church. It is just a matter of time *?????*
** *By the way - I do not see the Kingdom of God and the Church as being
the same, biblically speaking, anymore than I confuse "sovereign rule and
authority" with "assemblage." *
* *
*.*
and sees the Mormon religion as just that - a religion.
DAVEH: Do you not find it interesting that the LDS Church is classified
amongst Christian churches in this study? Do you suppose it is considered
as a Christian church in contrast to what some TTers believe?
*I see many within orthodoxy extending the right hand of fellowship and
willing to consider this church as a denomination of the Larger Church.
I do not see the same consideration coming from the Mormon Church. *
I was thinking that the claim was that Mormonism is Christian.
Such does not appear to be the case . Blaine writes: Mormonism, or
the religion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A
rather disappointing comment.
DAVEH: Without knowing the context of what else he said at the same time,
I can't offer an opinion one way or the other on this one. I don't see
where such a statement alone would suggest that Mormonism is not
Christian.
*My concern is this: that these words inidcated that Mormonism considers
itself the ONLY (true) Christians. *
And when we are talking about growth rates, world wide, the Christian
faith (excluding Mormonis - apparently by thei r own admission) is
growing at the rate of 3,000 per hour .
DAVEH: How many of those do you suppose can be attributed to the RCC
birth rate?
*Considerable -- and in much the same way as Mormon growth rates (?).
*
Kingdom rule has already been established.
DAVEH: Such the RCC folks believe. They just don't quite understand why
you (Protestants) felt the need to leave the nest.
*It had to do with grace verses works salvationism. *
Grace is the order of the day and the "right church" was never The
Divine Concern except that this assemblage be CONSIDERED RIGHT through
and because of Christ. The notion that the church was initially right
(Book of Acts ) and that it fell away is simply not historically accurate
(Book of Acts).
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, John. IF there was not a falling away,
there would be no need for a restitution of all things, as I see it. *You
have kinda of lost me, here. All of us can read about the First Church in
the Book of Acts -- a church full of Jews unwilling to break with any of
the Law, it's requirements and traditions, while, at the same time,
accepting the message of Christ as Son of God. The First Church could
not be any further off base than it was a month after Pentecost Day.
Seeds of dnominationalism are recorded in script no more than 30 years
following Pentecost. What was not effected by this missing of the mark
was the preaching of the gospel of unmerited redemption by the apostles.
That is what changed in the falling away -- and the Mormon Church
certainly did not re-establish that teaching. ; *
And your debate with deegan
DAVEH: I don't recall doing much debating with Kevin recently. Perhaps
you are confusing me with someone else, though that hardly seems possible.
*I refer to what has been going on between the two of you over the past
year and half. *
and other works-salvationists on TT is only a debate over which rules
are the right rules. The primary theology is the same and the method
of institutional purity is identical -- x those who disagree -- damn
such passages as Romans 14. JD
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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