Do me a favor, DM. Plug scripture into this discussion.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:47:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spirit
John wrote: > The discussion concerning demons has little to do > with establishing the duality of the human being. > It's like comparing a bird with a human. Demons > are demons and humans are humans. Because > one goes looking for a body has nothing to do with > those who already have a body. Demonology establishes a number of things: 1. There is such a thing as spirits existing without bodies. Not humans .. correct? 2. Spirits desire and need bodies. Since man is born with a spirit, this has nothing to do with
the subject. More than that, your statement assumes the very thing to be proved. 3. Human bodies can receive other spirits besides the normal human spirit that it is born with. True and so what. They also get the flue -- doesn't make them a germ. 4. A demon spirit can control a human body every bit as much as a human spirit can control it. Christian ae not affected by evil spirits, indwelling.And, again, so what? 5. Spirits can enter and leave bodies, and the behavior of the body changes when this happens. Not Christians and so what? Now the relationship of demons to humans goes beyond Scripture, so I won't go there right now. However, I will say that we should not assume that they are as different from humans as birds are to humans. Even if we were to assume that, it is still relevant. In fact, if we had facts about the spirit of a bird and its relationship to its body, that would be useful too. Medical science uses animal research all the time in this way, not ignoring the differences between animals and humans, but recognizing that the similarities enable some understanding. I will not debate your speculative theories. John wrote: > Romans 7 is something that DM has long misunderstood. > "Flesh" and "spirit" are considerations of the same mind (R 8:5). Flesh and spirit both impact considerations of the mind, but they are not "considerations of the mind." In other words, the phrase "considerations of the mind" does not define flesh and spirit.
R 8:5 says different IMO. Those who live according ot the flesh are those who set their minds
on things of the flesh. Considerations of the the mind, in this passage DOES define flesh and spirit.
Those who live according to .... are not those who do a certain thing but are those who SET THEIR
MINDS on certain interests. I do not have to rewrite this passage -- you do. Tell me straight, John, do you believe like most scientists that the term "spirit" has no actual substance or existence? Do you think rather that the term spirit is an archaic metaphor for considerations of the mind?
Nice try David. I am no scientist. I am a pastor. I am no theologian - although I wish I were.
I am a pastor who enjoys the apologetics of theology........ whether I am good at it is another discussion.One of the rules of effective debate is this: do not allow the opponent to introduce his definitionsand presuppositions into the discussion without giving them challenge. I have asserted that "life in the flesh"
is defined by what we set our minds to consider.
You, in turn, try to make it appear that I am talking about the spirit [of man] when, in fact, I am talking about
spiritual thoughts . Your question HAS NO PLACE IN THIS Discussion TO THIS POINT and will remain unanswered ................... but, again, good try. Next attempt !!!! John wrote: > To imagine someone believes that we have a dualistic ontology > that is trapped in sin , on the one hand and fully pure on the other > is surprising to me. It is as if you believe in the "old me" and the > "real me." Actually, the Biblical terms are "old man and new man" or "natural man and spiritual man" or "flesh and spirit." David, I made my decision for Christ about the time
you were born -- maybe before you were born. I know the terminology. There is only one David Miller -- in the end he will be found to be serving either the flesh or the spirit as defined
by R 8:5. Until "the end" of the matter, he will move from flesh to spirit and back again. In R 8;%,
there is only ONE MIND thinking about one or the other. R 6:11 finds Paul telling the readers
to "consider themselves dead to the flesh." Once again -- the mind of man is critical to the reality of New Life. R 12:1-3, our BODIES are [eternally] affected by the renewing of our minds.
Philip 2:5 admonish us to allow the THINKING OF COMMUNITY CONCERNS (4) be in you as it was in
Christ. Why was Christ so effective as a MAN (SON OF MAN)? Because of His determination to
consider the interests of others more highly than His own interests.
John wrote:
> Man did not become a "living soul" apart from
> his fleshly circumstance.
Right. Soul is an emergent property of the interaction of spirit and flesh. I think this first thought just might be a very good one. I would strike
"emergent property" and have the sentence simply say "the soul is the interaction of the
spirit and the flesh -- so the spirit and flesh are joined and man becomes a LIVING soul. It is more tightly bound to spirit than flesh in the spiritual man; hence his soul can be saved. In the carnal man, the soul is defiled and fit to be burned.
Your dualism carries you away. My soul is not defiled -- all of me is tarnished. My body goes to heaven or "hell." I know this because of the bodily resurrection from the dead and subsequent transformation.
John wrote:
> Man IS mind spirit and body. That is man.
> To separate out one of these characteristics
> is to have something less than man ------
> ------ something other than man.
Something less than "man" perhaps, but not something other than man. If you
chop off a man's arm or remove his kidney, do you have something other than
man with the body that is left?
I suppose if you were to remove his heart or brain, then maybe you would
have something other than man. In that case, if the spirit was removed from
the body, my thinking based upon many passages of the Bible is that the
spirit continues on being the man whereas the body is that shell that is
left.Obviously, I do not believe that life is possible without the body and the spirit. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
