Re: [TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

[Judy Taylor]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:03:12 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, yes the RCC does teach original sin, and so does the Presbyterian church.  That is why they baptize infants, because they believe they go to hell if they are not baptized.    jt: The PCA Church I attend does not believe or teach that. They teach covenant and the parents are the ones who covenant  with God before the ppl to raise the child in the faith.  I'm in their classes now checking it out.   Judy, the PCA does teach “original sin”.  See this PCA church website:  www.covenantchurchpca.org/what_presb_belive.php   which includes the following statement: Presbyterians believe that as the result of Adam's sin all men are sinners; that sin is a stain upon us from our birth so that if left to the natural inclinations of our wills our lives would inevitably turn to evil. In the view of Presbyterians human nature is not neutral: it is not free to move upward or downward depending on circumstance, environment or education. Neither is human nature good; capable of infinite development in goodness, needing only to be left alone or "brought out" to achieve perfection. Human nature is rather sinful and "inclined to evil as the sparks fly upward." We see undesirable behavior and sinful tendencies in the smallest infant, and we observe that without discipline and restraint human beings inevitably live selfishly. This view of human nature Presbyterians describe by the term "Original Sin" because human imperfection seems to be both innate and instinctive. This imperfection (sin) taints every facet of our personalities. Consequently the description of Original Sin to which Presbyterians subscribe is summarized in the doctrine of Total Depravity. Mankind, we say, is inevitably (originally) and altogether (totally) marked by sin on account of the Fall.   jt: This may be the official line; I can only say what I was told. I will not adhere to anything I don't believe.  We each must go with our own conscience before the Lord. I'm aware that their stance is what they called "reformed faith" which is Calvinistic in nature.   So are they just “dedicating” rather than baptizing the infant?   jt: They call it baptizing but they tell us in the class that whatever we want to call it is fine but basically it is a covenant between the parents God, and the ppl as a community of faith.   Do you believe that infants go to hell?  If so, you believe in original sin, too.  If not, then you do not.   jt: I believe God honors covenant. Although King David's child was born because of his sin with Bathsheba, after it's death he said he knew that he would go to be with it but that the child could not rejoin him.    So you do not believe infants go to hell? Is that what you are saying?   jt: Not necessarily; I don't like to make rules for God. I think that the children of the righteous are sanctified; according to scripture the offspring of the wicked are not so blessed but we can rest in hope knowing that God is completely holy, righteous, and just and that He has done everything possible for us.   So you believe some children are guilty of original sin and do go to hell, but you believe that God does not condemn the children of Believers to hell because of their parents? Does this remove their original sin, do you think?   jt: To tell you the truth Izzy I have not spent a lot of time thinking all that out. I just praise God that I've seen the light and can pray for the little ones in our family.    It seems that you have stated that we are born with sinful flesh and are born guilty before God of sin, even before actually sinning.    jt: Not exactly - I said we are born with an inheritance in sin...under the curse because of the iniquities of the fathers - some more so than others.   Can you explain what an “inheritance in sin” is exactly? Does it mean you are guilty before God, even if you have not actually committed a sin?   jt: Death reigned from Adam to Moses, all were and are under the curse of Genesis 3:19. Morally many of us have been raised and trained in unrighteousness which is why we have had to be redeemed from the vain tradition received from our fathers (1 Peter 1:18)   IYO, does being born under the curse make one guilty of sin??? Please answer.  Was Jesus not born under the same curse as all of humanity?  Please define what you mean by the curse.    jt: Being born under the curse of death makes one prone to sin and death.. and no Jesus was not born under this curse; the angel told Mary she was blessed among women and blessed was the fruit of her womb - so obviously he was not cursed.  I may need to define what I understand it means to be cursed in another email.   Then I think you said you don't really believe that newborns go to hell.  This is contradictory.  What do you believe about original sin?  izzy jt: I'm not sure what the rcc teaches that everyone calls "original sin" but if we evaluate by what they teach about most everything else then I figure it can't be good...   It is not just the RCC that teaches there is “original sin”—I was also taught That in the Presbyterian church.  Several denominations, mostly high church, Teach that we are born guilty of sin because we inherited it.  Is that what you  believe or not?  You need to think that through if you have not.  Izzy   jt: I believe the scriptures teach that mankind is born into death and that sin becomes progressively worse generationally.  Five generations after Adam God destroyed all but 8 people and things will be that bad again when Jesus returns (as in the days of Noah)   I agree this is true for children of the ungodly, as they learn ungodly behavior from their parents and get worse each generation.  This is not something that is true for the godly Believer—they grow increasingly godly.  (You should know my grandchildren. J  )   jt: I agree and have noted this in the lives of believers who come from a godly heritage they appear to have more peace and less struggle in their walk with God (not so much to have to put off I guess)   Please review this Wikipedia website definition of “original sin” to see if This is what you subscribe to or not.   There are different definitions by differing denominations.Then please let me know which, if any, explain your viewpoint.  Thanks! izzy  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin     jt: Haven't had time to go there yet but I will.  Thanks for the URL. I didn't know there were different definitions for different denominations but am not surprised.  Have you dismissed this concept Izzy?  If so, why?   Yes, I have dismissed it as a doctrine of men.  My notes to you tell you why.  Sin is an ACT.  Sin is not something you are guilty of until you can intentionally commit a sinful ACT.  Do you understand what I am saying? Thanks, izzy   jt: I do Izzy and Ezekiel 18 bears out the fact that ppl will only be judged for what they themselves are responsible for.  This was true in the days of Ezekiel right before the Jews were carried off to Babylon for 70 in judgment for their sin and it is true today also.  Even when we are born under the curse, noone is forced to stay there.