Re: [TruthTalk] Antinomianism Refuted

[knpraise]

John's response is in bold black 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 03:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Antinomianism Refuted

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:55:22 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Christ is the exception to all the rules, David.  

Rather Christ IS the RULE JD and He left us an example that we should follow in His steps

 

You have no idea as to the context of my statement  -   but I am getting use to that

failing.

 

Who could ever have an idea about to what goes on in your head so far as "context" JD     I accept your statements at face value.   

 

On those occasions that "context" is not stated in the post, just ask.   The need to assume my contextual considerations is simply none existence.   Either you want to fight or you want to understand. 

 

 He was not mere man, simply a representative of the triune God. 

 

He was born of a woman and became one of us for the suffering of death whereas this  is impossible for God since God can not die so what does this tell you? 

 

As I understand Phil 2:1ff, He [necessarily] changed forms  -   as wone would expect when moving from the infinite to the finite.   He did not cease to be God!!   John 5:18 is a conclusion written by the apostle in which he presents the "fact" that Christ is equal to God  (and thus, of course, God Himself).  One does not and cannot stop being what one IS.   He can change form and administrations but he cannot change what he is.  Because He was God, He remains God in whatever state He finds Himself.   

 

ro 5: 12 does not include Christ.   Eph 4:20-24 does not apply to Him.   I Jo 1:9 is not

descriptive of his reality.   Ro 7:25 is for us and does not describe His servitude.  

 

The Epistles are written primarily for the Church JD and they reflect the finished work

of Christ.  However they do not negate the fact that during his time of ministry here on

this earth Jesus the man was limited in that he (like us) walked as a man led by the Spirit

in complete dependence on and in obedience to the Father with the same limitations

and this is how he was able to leave us an example that we should follow in His steps

(1 Peter 2:21) So now it is up to us, we can follow the example He left us and do the

works that He did and greater - or we can wimp out and follow the example of Israel

as per Heb 4:11 and presume upon God's grace.

 

Well, you've got it partially right.   None of this, however,  denies that He was God Incarnate. 

 

His life was of the Spirit without measure. 

 

No, his human life was human just like ours; God gave Him the spirit without measure

You stand in conflict with scripture.   Let's go to His prophet, John the Baptist, and see what he has to say about this One who is "just like us."  

 

He must increase but I must decrease {comparing the two ministries, at least]>  He who comes from above is above all [referring to Jesus].  He who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth.   He who comes from heaven is above all........... He whom God has sent speaks the words of God for He gives the Spirit without measure     John 3:30-34   Couple this with the apostle's view that His is God (5:18; 1:1).   Jesus defeated sin in His life as we do.   This in no wise means He is the same as us.  

 

 

 

whereas we each receive a measure but the spirit is the same. The works weren't his

they were from the Father and so were the words he spoke.

 

He was and is the eternal son of God, making Him equal to God. Even as the incarnate

God, He was and is the creator of all things.  

 

He did not come to earth as all these things.  He layed it all aside JD to become like us.

Because part of his ministry was to leave us an example to follow.  Remember??

 

You deny the diety of the incarnate Christ?   Even in view of the above?  

 

He authored our faith and brings it to completion 

 

The risen Christ does this.  The one we are to hear and obey. 

 

He is the same Jesus. 

 

we cannot do any of this.   As the incarnate God, He has a memory of the way things

were before the worlds were formed  --  we must live by faith and not sight.  

 

We are to be servants, not God.  He came as a servant.  Not God.  I agree with your last sentence the question being What does our faith rest in? The words of men or the Word of God?

 

He changed form.   And I no not think the Incarnate Christ can be understood as we compare His person wtih ours   ------   comparing the Creator with the creature.  I, quite rankly, do not pretend to understand how it works in His life.   I do not think he was  part man and part God.   His Incarnate form is, IMO, unique.

 

That is what I had in mind.   "Following in His steps" does not mean that we will ever

be on equal standing with this, our God.   He will forever be our example.  

 

How did we get off on "equality" - Since He did not see equality with God as a thing to be grasped - why should we?  This does not mean we can not be like our example.

 

John 5:18 says what it says.   Perhaps "equality" in Philip 2 speaks of a differing circumstance that that of John 5:18.   Don you think?   Or just ignore one for the other.   That is what you do best, it seems  ............   a key rule in your hermeutic. 

 

He will forever be more than we can hope to be.   Our righteousness will never be as

complete as His.   There is Christ and  then, there is the rest of us.  In this regard,

He is the exception to the rule.  

 

Where in scripture do you find that "righteousness" is by degrees?  One is either

righteous or they are unrighteous.  Since God is the judge, he sets the standard.

 

I guess this is my point!!!  If we violate in one consideration, we are fully guilty.

Our righteousness will never rise to His level because of this!!  This is exactly why we need His vicarious benefit. 

 

You compare yourself to the One whose ways are infinitely above our ways, the author

and finisher of our faith,  the solo complii of all that we are told to do or want to accomplish.  

 

His is the "image" we are to be conformed to JD - so it looks like your/our ways had better change; and all this rhetoric about his being the solo complii is hot air only unless you have the kind of faith that is DEAD.

 

You are such a heretic,  Judy.   Not even close to knowing why it is that you are saved.

 

You don't get it JD and you have no idea what I know.  Hot air blowing.... whew!! 

 

I know that this is heresy  =  his being the solo complii is hot air !!!!!

 

You place Him in the middle of our circumstance as if He is just another David Miller .  

Apparently, you see statements that affirm "His becoming like us in all respects " as a

confirmation of Him being a mere human. 

 

What do you call Him then?  He layed aside the glory he had with the father and took upon

Himself a human body with the same limitations we have; but for his faith and obedience.

 

I call Him "God" and worship Him as such.  

 

Even in His limitations, He was more than we could ever hope to be  --  see the above.

 

His image is what we should hope to be found in JD.  God does not expect of us what he is unwilling to give us the grace to perform. 

 

You miss the point of maturity as a process used by the Spirit to accomplish His will in us.  

 

When Paul confirms that there is none who are righteous, he does not include the Christ  

OF COURSE. We will never be like Him because He is God and we will never be and I have

to believe that you accept this statement, as well. 

 

Oh, then your gospel does not believe it possible for us to be "conformed to His image"

which is what the Church is predestined to be?  Talk about adding and subtracting from

the truth of God.

 

Our conforming is never done, in this life,  soooooooooooo,  no, it will never be that our righteousness will rise to His level.   Never.  

 

Of course it is JD, we will not need to conform in heaven since there is no darkness,

sin, or sickness there. It is here that we are to be lights reflecting His glory. BTW you

contradict your own theology when you keep insisting that "someone in what you call

(eis) can never rise to His level.  Never."

 

As we exist into Christ, surrounded by Him, we are seen as fully righteous.   Our justification is based upon the substitutionary exchange of faith for righteous (Ro 4:3).  Such was not the case for Jesus. 

 

You, Linda, Deegan, DM, Lance, Bill,  G and even Me are living proof of this point.  

I know Jesus, Judy Taylor and you, dear lady, are no Jesus Christ !!!!!!!!  

 

No you don't know Jesus JD because if you knew him you would not continue to

distort and truncate His Word.  You repeat what you have heard about him.

 

I will take some time to deal with your "exegetical" considerations.   There is a difference

between "contextual consideration" and that which is "exegetical."   But, no matter.   JD

 

Here we go again dum de dum de dah ... when in a bind find some big theological words for a filler.

 

What is your theological wording?   Something about "context and   on balance... "  I have truly forgotten  --------  but you use that which you condemn in others. 

 

You just can't come up with anything worth while  to say, can you?   There is not

a single thing in this, your response, that has value in terms of growth and maturity. 

Nothing. I look forward to an intelligent response from David. 

 

Growth and maturity happen when we decide to DO the Word JD, this is when we

will know the teaching.  In the meantime great swelling words of man's wisdom will

get you nowhere.  I am surprised you are looking fwd to David's response, really??

Is this the same David whom you malign and demean continually??

 

I look forward to his response since this is all addressed to him.   Your intrusion has offered no benefit to my understanding.  

 

 JD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

JD wrote to Judy:
> When the book declares that "none are righteous, no
> not [even] one," your bias closes your eyes to that
> declaration --  one stated in the Old and confirmed in
> the New to a group of fellow Christians.

You are lifting a passage completely out of context.  The book said this 
before Christ ever came.  Don't you think Christ is an exception to this 
statement by virtue of the fact that he lived outside its time frame?  And 
if you accept that Christ is righteous despite this declaration of the book, 
why can you not accept that those in Christ are also righteous despite this 
declaration of the book?

There is a parallel consideration found in 1 Cor. 2:10.  He quotes Isaiah 
saying, "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard..." etc.  You know the passage. 
However, in the very next verse, he says, "But God hath revealed them to us 
by his Spirit."  Therefore, when the Spirit enters the picture, the natural 
things spoken about man in the book no longer apply.  Without the Spirit, 
men do not know the things of God, but with the Spirit, they do.  Without 
the Spirit, there is none righteous, no not one.  With the Spirit and the 
cleansing of the Word, there are some who are righteous.  Whoever is in 
Christ is righteous, despite the declaration of the book that "none are 
righteous, no not one."

You have asked for exegesis.  Now you have some.  Deal with this from an 
exegetical perspective.  What say you?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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