Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Infallibility
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 06:43:58 -0400
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Many can and do speak FOR God. None but God may speak AS God. Through =
God alone may God be known.
How many times.............? Even a semi-literate novice believer is =
able to take note of the cacaphony of gospels and Jesus' being attested =
to on TT (of course elsewhere also)!
The more discerning reader cannot but see the manipulative, controlling =
and, almost cult-like component reflected in the tenor of some. Those =
who take pride in their argumentation will one day fall. The greatest =
logicians and rhetoricians have come and gone. They have their reward in
=
the applause of humankind.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: October 08, 2005 14:35
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Infallibility
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 12:08:30 -0400
Subject: [TruthTalk] Infallibility
David Miller wrote:
Example of an infallible Truth:
Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah.
JD wrote:
Your illustration is something that we both would
agree upon. But my Jesus is the Eternal Son
and yours is not. My Jesus is a unique incarnational
being and yours is not (you, believing that we can
be exactly like Him in terms life and living).
See my point?
I understand that we might have differences in the details of our=20
Christology. We also have differences in how we understand one =
another's=20
Christology because I do believe that Jesus is a unique incanational =
being.=20
If it is ok with you, I would rather not go down these rabbit trails =
right=20
now. Let's get back to the issue of speaking infallibly. =20
If I declare, "Jesus Christ is the Messiah!" is this an infallible =
statement=20
or not? Is the statement without error? Is not this statement an=20
infallible declaration of truth? Only to those who believe. =20
JD wrote:
It is a personal truth, full of passion, but
it is a point of faith. Faith is not a rational
consideration of whatever. In fact, it is irrational
-- because it exists without proof. Evidence,
yes. Proof, no. -- just like any postulated
consideration.
Most rational beliefs are taken without proof. They are called =
assumptions=20
in logic. You and I understand faith completely differently. Faith is =
not=20
irrational. This will have to be discussed in another thread. Let's =
talk=20
about infallibility and whether any of us can speak infallibly. Ok?I do
=
not know what to say, at this point. I do think our belief system =
regarding all that is of Christian claim is circular in nature and, =
hence, irrational. To argue the point, you will take us beyond the =
divide, into the next life and argue that when we have all the facts at =
our disposal, we will see these truths as infallible and irresistible.
=
But your argument, in and of itself, is circular as well. Nothing is =
infallible this side of actual experience. As a result, I must stand =
on faith. Is there anyone=20
out there who sees my point or can better state the matter? =20
Peace be with you.
David Miller.=20
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may =
know how=20
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) =
http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to=20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
=
friend=20
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to =
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and=20
he will be subscribed.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many can and do speak FOR God. None but
=
God may=20
speak AS God. Through God alone may God be known.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How many times.............? Even a =
semi-literate=20
novice believer is able to take note of the cacaphony of gospels and =
Jesus'=20
being attested to on TT (of course elsewhere also)!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The more discerning reader cannot but =
see the=20
manipulative, controlling and, almost cult-like component reflected in =
the tenor=20
of some.</FONT> <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Those who take pride in
=
their=20
argumentation will one day fall. The greatest logicians and rhetoricians
=
have=20
come and gone. They have their reward in the applause of =
humankind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [EMAIL PROTECTED] =
href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</=
A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 08, 2005 =
14:35</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TruthTalk]=20
Infallibility</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana'">
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: David =
Miller=20
<<A =
href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>><BR>To:
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</=
A><BR>Sent:=20
Sat, 8 Oct 2005 12:08:30 -0400<BR>Subject: [TruthTalk] =
Infallibility<BR><BR>
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<DIV class=3DAOLPlainTextBody=20
id=3DAOLMsgPart_0_cd1d12e3-5f1f-4b0b-878e-d13b44b0abfa><PRE><TT>David =
Miller wrote:
>> Example of an infallible Truth:
>> Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah.
<SPAN class=3Dcorrection id=3D"">JD</SPAN> wrote:
> Your illustration is something that we both would
> agree upon. But my Jesus is the Eternal Son
> and yours is not. My Jesus is a unique <SPAN class=3Dcorrection =
id=3D"">incarnational</SPAN>
> being and yours is not (you, believing that we can
> be exactly like Him in terms life and living).
> See my point?
I understand that we might have differences in the details of our=20
<SPAN class=3Dcorrection id=3D"">Christology</SPAN>. We also have =
differences in how we understand one another's=20
<SPAN class=3Dcorrection id=3D"">Christology</SPAN> because I do believe
=
that Jesus is a unique <SPAN class=3Dcorrection =
id=3D"">incanational</SPAN> being.=20
If it is <SPAN class=3Dcorrection id=3D"">ok</SPAN> with you, I would =
rather not go down these rabbit trails right=20
now. Let's get back to the issue of speaking infallibly. =
</TT></PRE><PRE><TT></TT><TT>
If I declare, "Jesus Christ is the Messiah!" is this an infallible =
statement=20
or not? Is the statement without error? Is not this statement an=20
infallible declaration of truth? <STRONG><FONT color=3D#cc0000>Only to =
those who believe. </FONT></STRONG>
<SPAN class=3Dcorrection id=3D"">JD</SPAN> wrote:
> It is a personal truth, full of passion, but
> it is a point of faith. Faith is not a rational
> consideration of whatever. In fact, it is irrational
> -- because it exists without proof. Evidence,
> yes. Proof, no. -- just like any postulated
> consideration.
Most rational beliefs are taken without proof. They are called =
assumptions=20
in logic. You and I understand faith completely differently. Faith is =
not=20
irrational. This will have to be discussed in another thread. Let's =
talk=20
about infallibility and whether any of us can speak infallibly. <SPAN =
class=3Dcorrection id=3D"">Ok</SPAN>?</TT></PRE><PRE><TT><STRONG><FONT =
color=3D#cc0000>I do not know what to say, at this point. I do think =
our belief system regarding all that is =
</FONT></STRONG></TT></PRE><PRE><TT><STRONG><FONT color=3D#cc0000>of =
Christian claim is circular in nature and, hence, irrational. To argue
=
the point, you will </FONT></STRONG></TT></PRE><PRE><TT><STRONG><FONT =
color=3D#cc0000>take us beyond the divide, into the next life and argue =
that when we have all the facts at our =
</FONT></STRONG></TT></PRE><PRE><TT><STRONG><FONT =
color=3D#cc0000>disposal, we will see these truths as infallible and =
irresistible. But your argument, in and of =
</FONT></STRONG></TT></PRE><PRE><TT><STRONG><FONT =
color=3D#cc0000>itself, is circular as well. Nothing is infallible this
=
side of actual experience. As a result, =
</FONT></STRONG></TT></PRE><PRE><TT><STRONG><FONT color=3D#cc0000>I must
=
stand </FONT></STRONG></TT><TT><STRONG><FONT color=3D#cc0000>on faith. =
Is there anyone=20
out there who sees my point or can better state the matter? =
</FONT></STRONG>
Peace be with you.
David Miller.=20
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may =
know how=20
you ought to answer every man." (<SPAN class=3Dcorrection =
id=3D"">Colossians</SPAN> 4:6) <A href=3D"http://www.InnGlory.org"; =
target=3D_blank>http://www.InnGlory.org</A>
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to=20
<A =
href=3D"mailto:LeaveTruthTalk%40InnGlory.org";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
</A> and you will be <SPAN class=3Dcorrection =
id=3D"">unsubscribed</SPAN>. If you have a friend=20
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to <A =
href=3D"mailto:JoinTruthTalk%40InnGlory.org";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</=
A> and=20
he will be subscribed.
</TT></PRE></DIV><!-- end of =
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----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
