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Are you living in some kind of delusion
Bill?
My understanding of that text remains the same as it
was, so please let's deal with reality here
rather than presumption. jt
You are correct about my point, as was
demonstrated in Judy and Kevin's refusal to accept the passive
present-and-ongoing aspect of this word; that is, until David stepped in and
helped grow their understanding.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:59
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
corrector/revisor
I have Jay Green's interlinear (among others). He is
a big fan of the textus receptus. At any rate
- I think Bill's point
(correct me if I am wrong, Bill) is that the KJ translation gives us a past tense translation of a
present tense participle. There is no good reason for doing such and in
that context, it is a "mistake." if you don't care to see it as a
"mistake," certainly one is forced to agree that it is a less accurate
translation (the past tense) than the actual present tense. In
the English, this past tense translation circumvents ENTIRELY the impact
of sanctification as ongoing event by another in our
lives.
JD -----Original
Message----- From: Kevin Deegan
< openairmission@yahoo.com> To:
[email protected]Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:48 -0800
(PST) Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/ revisor
What greek text is
that? Not NA 27 or 26! LOL Watch out Dean you have now been
labeled a dreaded "Works salvationist" It is not very far (or long I might add)
before you will become a Kentucky Baptist! And please do not use the Lame
excuse that you are Wesleyan as such trivial matters are no concern to JD[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
The greek text (the holy and
inspired KJV greek text, by
the way) says "He has perfected FOR EVER then that are (being)
sanctified" Heb 10:14.
One of several differences between your side of the fence and ours is
bound to the fact that you (all) do not have a clue as to what it means ti
"have been perfected by another -- namely Jesus
Christ." How could you. You are a committed works
salvationist.
cd: Am I to understand you to mean
that one doesn't learn and grow-one is already
perfect?
Your question above is an illustration of this very
point. A couple of questions -- which, of
course, your side will not answer: do you deny
that the KJ greek text
says what it says? When you see the word
"perfected," do you think it always includes the concepts of growth and
maturity? the KJV actually states that we have been
"perfected for ever." Do you argue that this translation is in
error? If not -- and how could you -- on
what theological grounds could this statement be true since the action of
sanctification is not yet
completed?
JD
-----Original Message----- From: Dean Moore <cd_ moore@earthlink.net> To:
[email protected]Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:15:17
-0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/ revisor
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
11/21/2005 11:22:52 PM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
They are not "being perfected." They are being
sanctified. I believe that "sactification" is the work of God within the
believer -- its finale is expressed [in part] in a visible difference
(holiness) between "us" and "them." In this example, we are
passively involved to the glory of God. Perfection, in this scripture, is a done
deal -- Him dying ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME for
us.
JD
cd: Am I to understand you to mean that one doesn't learn and
grow-one is already perfect?
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Deegan
<openairmission@yahoo.com>
To:
[email protected]
Sent: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:17:39 -0800
(PST)
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
KJV For by one offering he
hath perfected for ever them that are
sanctified.
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971,
1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The
Lockman
Foundation For by one offering He has perfected for
all time those who are sanctified.
Youngs Literal translation for by
one offering he hath perfected to the end those
sanctified
ASV For by one offering he hath
perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
NKJV For by one offering He has
perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NIV because by one
sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made
holy.
If Christ's offering gives eternal perfection,
as the first half of the verse claims, why does the rest of the verse
say that we are BEING
'perfected'?
Dean Moore <cd_moore@earthlink.net>
wrote:
cd: see the Bottom of
page.
-----
Original Message -----
To: [email protected]
Sent:
11/21/2005 10:08:48 AM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] corrector/revisor
Since the theme has been that of
perfection, I thought I would keep it going with a look at Hebrews 10.14. The KJV says, "For by one offering he hath
perfected for ever them that are sanctified." A cursory reading of
this verse may leave one with the impression that the
"perfected" are those whose sanctification is complete:
they are, after all, "sanctified," aren't
they? Well, not if one's concern is with holding true to the
"pure" word of God as set forth in the "Received Text." In the
Greek this participle is a present tense in the passive
voice. If one were desiring to reflect that voice in his translation
and thereby hold true to the grammar and intent of the "majority
text," this participle would best be translated
as "those who are being sanctified," thereby
reflecting a sanctification which is
passive (i.e.., the action is being pe rformed by someone other
than the subject) and not yet complete. Hence according to this, Christ has
perfected forever (a completed action), not those who are presently
sanctified (also a completed action), but those who are in the
process of being sanctified: a fairly
significant difference, it seems to me. Bill
So this is an example of
how the KJV is in
error Bill?
IMO the error is with your understanding
rather than with the text of the KJV translation. You have read
something into the text that is not there and have made a straw
man to knock down. The word sanctification does not
necessarily mean an action being performed; the same word is used in 1
Cor 7:14 for an
unbelieving wife who is sanctified (set apart, consecrated) by the
faith of her husband. In this sense "sanctified" means
something entirely different from what you describe. So IOW "By one offering
Jesus has perfected for ever them that are set apart, consecrated
(or sanctified)."
I have a huge banner that says the same thing you
banner say on 1 John 2:4-I will send you a picture of it sis
:-)
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John
2:4)
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judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
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