Dave, please read this note to Terry.
DAVEH: I did, Perry. I'd prefer to hear Terry's comment before
responding, but due to time constraints, I think it best to reply now.
Imagine this same conversation occuring in YOUR
sunday school class or other church meeting.
DAVEH: That's the problem with your scenario, Perry. As you
correctly pointed out below, this did NOT happen in a sunday school
class or other church meeting. It happened in TruthTalk where
referring to other TTers as a snake in the grass and a messenger
boy of satan is acceptable behavior in the eyes of some. It
happened in a Forum where it is not uncommon to hear some call other
members liars and where some attempt to ridicule, demean, mock,
denigrate and embarrass others. Do those things happen in a sunday
school class or other church meeting? If that's the kind of church
you attend....I feel sorry for you.
This Forum on the other hand has been bandied around as a place
where truth can be found, and where ad-homs are supposed to be
unacceptable. As I see it, that is all a sham in the name of
Christianity.
Now don't get me wrong....I know TT is not the same as Church.
(Though I am not sure you understand that, from the intended nature of
your below post.) And I am not complaining about the treatment I get
here. If that is what you think I am doing....you are dead wrong. If
you want to bloody my nose, be my guest. I've got a big nose and
sometimes I stick it where it doesn't belong. So what's my beef?
Simple Perry. It is a matter of Christian hypocrisy, as TT has become
a place where a double standard is practiced, IMHO.
If you want to sucker punch me, go ahead....take your best shot,
as I think I remember you saying. But then don't whine about me
turning your punch around in reply by using your own words. That just
sounds a bit immature, Perry.
BTW.....I'm impressed that you actually spent a fair amount of time
putting the material below together and editing it to be so
inquisitively churchy sounding. Yes indeed....you did a good job,
Perry.....even if you took tone out of context by leaving off all the
smilies that accompanied many of the comments.
However, your concluding comment.......
Now, while it is true that we are not in Sunday School here on TT,
WHY SHOULD WE AS CHRISTIANS BEHAVE ANY DIFFERENTLY HERE THAN WE WOULD
IN SUNDAY SCHOOL?
........forgot to mention that Carlos previously told the sunday
school class that Ray is satan's messenger boy. Perhaps
Carlos is also a hypocritical Christian practicing a double standard,
eh Perry!
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, please read this note to Terry. It might help you to see
how you have behaved badly. Imagine this same conversation occuring
in YOUR sunday school class or other church meeting.
From: "Charles Perry Locke"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TruthTalk] Terry, let me put it in perspective for you.
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 22:04:26 -0800
Terry, here is my point. please take the time to read it. Answer my
questions to yourself, then please repond and let me know if you get my
point in this whole ordeal.
Terry, would you consider having a similar conversation in your sunday
school class? Let you mind wander to your sunday school class, if you
attend one, or a prayer meeting or some other church function you
attend:
Would you be at all shocked if Sunday morning a woman, lets say "Irma",
in your class asked of another member, Ray, "How about during sex, Ray?
I’ve read that you’re supposed to leave them [your underwear] on then,
too. True or false?" Would anyone be shocked at this? Would you?
What if Ray responds, "Do you really think it is appropriate to discuss
such personal things [in a sunday school class] that is known for its
lack of taste at times? If you really want to know the answer to
personal questions such as that, contact me [after sunday school] and
I'll answer your question."
[ Ray starts to take the right tack, but then offers to answer the
question in private! Does this seem appropriate to you, Terry?]
Then Irma says, "You know I'll tell!".
[Irma is playing with Ray. Terry, does that seem appropriate?]
Then Ray responds, "Wow Irma......I am rather surprised to hear you say
that! But it is nice to know you are not so hypocritical that you
would not be willing to [discuss in Sunday School] such personal things
as you expect me to share. Now that I think about it Irma, I'm sure
it would be much more interesting for TTers to hear about your sexual
experiences than mine. Do tell! "
[ Now, Ray asks irma to relate HER sexual experiences. Does this seem
appropriate to you, Terry?]
[And at this point the Ray has focused the discussion on "Irmas Sexual
Experiences".]
Suddenly, Jean, being offended by such talk, calls for the teacher,
"Where is our teacher? Carlos?"
[Jean is genuinely offended by this type of talk, joking or not! Does
this surprise you, Terry?]
To which Ray quickly quips, "Do you suppose Carlos will know anything
about them [Irma's sexual experiences], Jean?!?!"
[ Ray is now taking Jean's sincere call for moderation from he teacher,
and turning it into an extremely dirty and suggestive question
regarding the teacher, Carlos, and Irma. Does this seem appropriate,
Terry? Before you answer, rememebr, Ray is only joking! Is this type of
joking appropriate for Chrstians?]
Now, Terry, if you tell me that this is the kind of sunday School
classes YOU attend, I will seriously question the spiritual sincerelty
of you and your class members! You all knew Ray was joking, BUT THE
JOKES ARE LACIVIOUS and the product of a PERVERSE mind!
Next, Carlos pulls Ray and Irma aside and asks them to apologize to the
class, and especially to Jean, and even to himself for dragging him
into it. Even though all knew they were joking, SOME WERE GENUINELY
OFFENDED BY THE LACIVIOUS NATURE OF THE JOKING! [Terry, does this seem
like the propertime, place, or audience to joke like this?. Terry,
should a devout Christian be joking like this at all!]
After being asked privately to apologize, Irma immediately apologizes
for asking such a suggestive question.
But, Ray stands up before the whole class and says, " You bunch of
whining cry-babies! You are all faking your offense and there is no way
I am going to apologize to anyone who fakes offense at my humor!!!
[Terry, does this seem like an arrogant and insensitive response from
Ray?]
Would you expect an apology from Ray? Would you feel like he was out of
place not only for telling these dirty-minded jokes, but for being
insenstive to Jean's genuine offense, for ignoring the teacher's
request to apologize, and for standing arrogantly before the whole
class and making self-righteous statements?
Or,Terry, would you let it ride and expect everyone to sweep Ray's
inappropriate joking under the rug?
Now, while it is true that we are not in Sunday School here on
TT, WHY SHOULD WE AS CHRISTIANS BEHAVE ANY DIFFERENTLY HERE THAN WE
WOULD IN SUNDAY SCHOOL?
Based on the illustration above, I accept Izzy's apology for asking the
initial question, I stand by my censuring of DaveH for saying what he
did, honor Dean's taking offense as genuine, and stand by my request
for an apology from Dave, not only to Dean, Izzy, and myself, but to
ALL OF TT, and stand by my comment that Dave's response to my request
for an apology was arrogant and insensitive.
Terry, do you get my point?
Perry
From: Terry Clifton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lance Mur says: I have a sense of DaveH that
he ain'tgot it in '
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:48:16 -0600
You misunderstood, my friend. My sense of humor was not tittilated. I
did not even find it funny. I simply recognized that it was offered as
humor with no intention of denigrating Izzy or you. Like I told CD,
some people have their button pushed more easily than others. You see
a reason to see Dave as someone with a filthy mind. I do not. If that
causes you to question my allegiance to my Lord, I can live with it.
Terry
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
So, Terry, if I understand you correctly,
your sense of humor is such that it is titillated by someone asking
Izzy about her sexual experiences, and suggesting that I know something
about them, even humorously, especially before your Christian peers?
Hmmm.
From: Terry Clifton
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lance Mur says: I have a sense of DaveH that
he ain'tgot it in 'em
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:28:45 -0600
I would like to apologize to
everyone for not being offended. I feel so guilty.
Terry
cd: Little wonder as it was not you wife who was asked these
questions-What
if someone did-How then would you feel then-Also the sinful undertones
of
such a question angers the Holy Spirit.Izzy's husband isn't here to
defend
his wife so I.... Strange that the Holy Spirit didn't speak to you also
as
sin was being prompted.
===========================================================
If my wife was asked the same question by the same person in response
to a question that my wife asked him, I would assume that it was good
natured kidding of one another. If I perceived his comments to be
demeaning or insulting, I would advise him that his comments were
uncalled for and ask him to apologize. I did not see that this time
and do not expect to ever see such from DaveH. He is probably the
closest thing to a gentleman that we have on this list. He and I will
never agree on theology, but that is no reason to treat him unfairly.
If you do not see it the same way, that is your privilege. We all have
little things that drive us up the wall. Terry .
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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