Terry, thanks for taking the time to run throught this example. I have
learned from your responses.
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Terry, let me put it in perspective for you.
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 09:26:59 -0600
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Terry, here is my point. please take the time to read it. Answer my
questions to yourself, then please repond and let me know if you get my
point in this whole ordeal. I will answer as honestly as I can.
Terry, would you consider having a similar conversation in your sunday
school class? Let you mind wander to your sunday school class, if you
attend one, or a prayer meeting or some other church function you attend:
I would not initiate such a conversation, in Sunday school or anywhere
else, but if someone else did, I would not have a cow.
Would you be at all shocked if Sunday morning a woman, lets say "Irma", in
your class asked of another member, Ray, "How about during sex, Ray? I've
read that you're supposed to leave them [your underwear] on then, too.
True or false?" Would anyone be shocked at this? Would you? I would
consider this to be in poor taste anywhere. A little surprised maybe, but
certainly not shocked
What if Ray responds, "Do you really think it is appropriate to discuss
such personal things [in a sunday school class] that is known for its lack
of taste at times? If you really want to know the answer to personal
questions such as that, contact me [after sunday school] and I'll answer
your question."
[ Ray starts to take the right tack, but then offers to answer the
question in private! Does this seem appropriate to you, Terry?] Yes, it
does. If this bunch is offended, take it private so they won't all have a
stroke.
Then Irma says, "You know I'll tell!".
[Irma is playing with Ray. Terry, does that seem appropriate?] I thought
that that was a humorous reply. Nothing inappropriate about it.
Then Ray responds, "Wow Irma......I am rather surprised to hear you say
that! But it is nice to know you are not so hypocritical that you would
not be willing to [discuss in Sunday School] such personal things as you
expect me to share. Now that I think about it Irma, I'm sure it would be
much more interesting for TTers to hear about your sexual experiences than
mine. Do tell! "
[ Now, Ray asks irma to relate HER sexual experiences. Does this seem
appropriate to you, Terry?] My turn to ask. Do you honestly think that
Dave expected her to comply? Can you not see that this was tongue in
cheek?
[And at this point the Ray has focused the discussion on "Irmas Sexual
Experiences".]
Suddenly, Jean, being offended by such talk, calls for the teacher, "Where
is our teacher? Carlos?"
[Jean is genuinely offended by this type of talk, joking or not! Does this
surprise you, Terry?] Yes, it does. I seem to be the only one here that
can discern between humor done in poor taste and the unforgiveable sin.
To which Ray quickly quips, "Do you suppose Carlos will know anything
about them [Irma's sexual experiences], Jean?!?!"
[ Ray is now taking Jean's sincere call for moderation from he teacher,
and turning it into an extremely dirty and suggestive question regarding
the teacher, Carlos, and Irma. Does this seem appropriate, Terry? Before
you answer, rememebr, Ray is only joking! Is this type of joking
appropriate for Chrstians?] Might I suggest that you go work in a prison
for a decade, just to get an idea of what extremely dirty and suggestive
really is? Poor taste? Yes. Outrageous? I think not.
Now, Terry, if you tell me that this is the kind of sunday School classes
YOU attend, I will seriously question the spiritual sincerelty of you and
your class members! You all knew Ray was joking, BUT THE JOKES ARE
LACIVIOUS and the product of a PERVERSE mind!
I have already expressed my thoughts on the opinion of the Sunday school
class. I have had prudes condemn me for drinking non alcoholic beer, not
wearing a suit to church, and for not wearing a tie to a funeral. My
concern is what God thinks and He is everywhere, with the possible
exception of some Sunday school classes. I will let Him decide whether
these comments came from a perverse mind.
Next, Carlos pulls Ray and Irma aside and asks them to apologize to the
class, and especially to Jean, and even to himself for dragging him into
it. Even though all knew they were joking, SOME WERE GENUINELY OFFENDED BY
THE LACIVIOUS NATURE OF THE JOKING! [Terry, does this seem like the
propertime, place, or audience to joke like this?. Terry, should a devout
Christian be joking like this at all!] I am getting the opinion that you
and Dean are so devout that you won't even smile, let alone joke. Who
made the decision that this was lacivious anyway?
After being asked privately to apologize, Irma immediately apologizes for
asking such a suggestive question. She did the right thing. Admirable.
But, Ray stands up before the whole class and says, " You bunch of whining
cry-babies! You are all faking your offense and there is no way I am going
to apologize to anyone who fakes offense at my humor!!! [Terry, does this
seem like an arrogant and insensitive response from Ray?] Insensative?
Yes, Dave should have humbled himself. Instead, he pointed out your
shortcomings. He was no more arrogant than some have been to him.
Would you expect an apology from Ray? Would you feel like he was out of
place not only for telling these dirty-minded jokes, but for being
insenstive to Jean's genuine offense, for ignoring the teacher's request
to apologize, and for standing arrogantly before the whole class and
making self-righteous statements? Yes. I would hope for an apology
Or,Terry, would you let it ride and expect everyone to sweep Ray's
inappropriate joking under the rug? I would let it die on the vine. The
more you stir crap, the more it stinks. And yes, I would say that in a
Sunday school class.
Now, while it is true that we are not in Sunday School here on TT, WHY
SHOULD WE AS CHRISTIANS BEHAVE ANY DIFFERENTLY HERE THAN WE WOULD IN
SUNDAY SCHOOL? I do not behave differently here than I would in Sunday
school class.
Based on the illustration above, I accept Izzy's apology for asking the
initial question, I stand by my censuring of DaveH for saying what he did,
honor Dean's taking offense as genuine, and stand by my request for an
apology from Dave, not only to Dean, Izzy, and myself, but to ALL OF TT,
and stand by my comment that Dave's response to my request for an apology
was arrogant and insensitive.
Terry, do you get my point? I get what you are saying. I just do not
agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine.
I doubt that either of us will change.
Perry
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lance Mur says: I have a sense of DaveH that he
ain'tgot it in '
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:48:16 -0600
You misunderstood, my friend. My sense of humor was not tittilated. I
did not even find it funny. I simply recognized that it was offered as
humor with no intention of denigrating Izzy or you. Like I told CD,
some people have their button pushed more easily than others. You see a
reason to see Dave as someone with a filthy mind. I do not. If that
causes you to question my allegiance to my Lord, I can live with it.
Terry
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
So, Terry, if I understand you correctly, your sense of humor is such
that it is titillated by someone asking Izzy about her sexual
experiences, and suggesting that I know something about them, even
humorously, especially before your Christian peers? Hmmm.
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lance Mur says: I have a sense of DaveH that
he ain'tgot it in 'em
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:28:45 -0600
I would like to apologize to everyone for not being offended. I feel
so guilty.
Terry
cd: Little wonder as it was not you wife who was asked these
questions-What
if someone did-How then would you feel then-Also the sinful undertones
of
such a question angers the Holy Spirit.Izzy's husband isn't here to
defend
his wife so I.... Strange that the Holy Spirit didn't speak to you
also as
sin was being prompted.
===========================================================
If my wife was asked the same question by the same person in response
to a question that my wife asked him, I would assume that it was good
natured kidding of one another. If I perceived his comments to be
demeaning or insulting, I would advise him that his comments were
uncalled for and ask him to apologize. I did not see that this time
and do not expect to ever see such from DaveH. He is probably the
closest thing to a gentleman that we have on this list. He and I
will never agree on theology, but that is no reason to treat him
unfairly. If you do not see it the same way, that is your privilege.
We all have little things that drive us up the wall.
Terry .
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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