|
Hi Dean,
I don't know what exactly David Hunt is
(denominationally speaking) - I do know that he is DEFINITELY NOT a
Calvinist.
If you can get a hold of his book "What Love is sThis"
you would be convinced - He has done his homework and footnotes
everything
he has written in there. He has also debated John
White on these issues so is well informed. I thought DavidM was
Wesleyan - isn't
that his testimony? jt
cd: Don't believe it Judy -Dave Hunt is a Calvinist. That's why DavidM
likes his-He speaks the word that David wants to hear.
Your quote from Dave Hunt's book
is great. I have no problems with his facts or how he explains
the connection between Calvin and the City Council. What he says below
is exactly what I have been saying, and I hope you can see that what he says
is much different than saying that Calvin had murderous hatred
toward Servetus and murdered him.
The only comment I might make to clarify matters stated below is
that Calvin indeed believed in separation between Church and State, but not
in the way that we think of it today. The church, which
Calvin was part of and was a leader of, had only the power to
excommunicate. That's it. This is what Calvin
taught. The State, on the other hand, had the responsibility to
wield the sword of God (Romans 13). So he argued that the State, not
the church, was the one who punished evil doers. The difference comes
in when we consider laws against adultery, homosexuality, abortion,
blasphemy, not observing the Sabbath, drunkenness, etc. These days,
separation of Church and State mean to most people that the State should not
be involved in any matters that concern God or the church. From
Calvin's perspective, the State had an obligation to wield the sword of God
in matters that affected the Church and God. So from his view,
the State wielded the sword of God to punish evil doers while the
Church ministered forgiveness, mercy, the love of Christ,
etc. This was Calvin's view of separation of Church and State, and
this is what he worked toward accomplishing in Geneva.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005
7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's
beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
Hi David, thank you for your
response.
I am not an expert on Servetus and did not live
in Geneva so like you I am depending on written accounts by others -
and
it appears as though there are other opinions
about the situation in Geneva. In Dave Hunt's book "What Love is
This?" P.63 he writes:
"Calvin's defenders turn a blind eye to the facts
when they attempt to exonerate him by blaming events in Geneva on the
civil authorities. In the face of so much evidence to the contrary.
Boettner even insists that "Calvin was the first of the Reformers to
demand complete separation between Church and State." In fact,
Calvin not only established ecclesiastical law but he codified the civil
legislation. He held the civil authorities responsible to "foster
and maintain the external worship of God, to defend sound doctrine and
condition of the church" and to see that "no idolatry, no blasphemy
against God's name, no calumnies against his truth, nor other offenses to
religion break out and be disseminated among the people ... (but) to
prevent the true religion ... from being with impunity openly violated and
polluted by public blasphemy"
Calvin used the civil arm to impose his peculiar
doctrines upon the citizens of Geneva and to enforce them. Zweig, who
pored over the official records of the City Council for Calvin's day tells
us "There is hardly a day, in the records of the settings of the Town
Council in which we do not find the remark "Better consult Master Calvin
about this" Pike reminds us that Calvin was given a "consultant's
chair" in every meeting of the city authorities and "when he was sick the
authorities would come to his house for their sessions" Rather than
diminishing with time, Calvin's power only grew. John McNeil, a
Calvinist, admits that "in Calvin's latter years, and under his influence
the laws of Geneva became more detailed and more stringent"
Servetus may have been a rank heretic - but where
there is life there is hope of repentance. His life was taken from
him. judyt
Judy, elders and bishops are the same thing in Scripture. The
passage that Bill quotes is "bishop" in the KJV. I thought that
was the version of your Bible.
You still don't get the situation in Geneva. John Calvin was
brought to Geneva to help them organize a "reformed" church.
Calvin outlined an organization with Doctors, Pastors, Deacons, and
Elders. The powers went only as far as excommunication. This
was the only power that Calvin had, and when he exercised it once to the
chagrin of the city council, he himself was banished from Geneva for 3
years, until a new city council had invited him back. In regards
to Servetus, Calvin had NO POWER or AUTHORITY to put him to death, as
mandated by his own outline of powers of the church. His
involvement was by exhorting the city council to do something about this
man, and then by making the case for how Servetus had blasphemed the
name of God. So your question of, "how would it have been possible
for one of these men living in Geneva to reign in John Calvin," has
already been answered. All they had to do was say to Calvin,
"no." That's it. In fact, Servetus had made the case that
Calvin should be the one on trial and he sought to have Calvin put to
death and all his belongings given to Servetus. The council took
no action on his exhortation. What would history have been like if
they had accepted Servetus's arguments instead of Calvin's? Think
about it.
I'm off to meeting with the saints now. God bless.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 30,
2005 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean
Moore
Are you reading from the Latin Vulgate
Bill? My Bible calls them "elders" - yes they are to be
"examples" to
the flock but Jesus is head of the Church and
they are at best undershepherds. How would it have
been
possible for one of these men living in
Geneva to reign in John Calvin?
cd writes: Better read Titus 1:9-13
jt writes: Where in scripture does one find
a "Bishop-led" Church?
Titus 1.7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the
steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine,
no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality,
a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast
the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by
sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10 For
there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they
of the circumcision . . .
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
|
