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This IS the sort of thing I was looking for. YES
I'd like for you to post the 'newer' material.
thanks,
Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent: December 09, 2005 02:34
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New
Subject--A&E
DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this,
Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I
certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do
need some sleep!) nor the knowledge.
But.......
As you must know, I believe God created
us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOW....we were spirit
beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father
consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit
beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become
not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as
he is perfect.
That basic process is known by LDS
folks as eternal progression....effectively progressing from a created
spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS
authority said.......
As man is, God once was. As God is, man
may become.
.........which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite
many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we
have the potential to become like God....IFF we so desire to fulfill our
potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those
who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer
damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal
progression.
In order that the spirit beings in the
pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified
resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary
for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and
Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not
only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between
good and evil....they were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled,
but yet they were also naive in their innocence.....quite unlike God who knows
the difference between good and evil.
By placing the
tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not
to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the
forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge
needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their
bodies of flesh and blood....by dying, which separates the spirit from the
body.
In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only
did A&E subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we
define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also
were separated from God.....which we define as spiritual
death. In essence, this resulted in A&E experiencing two
forms of hell....first the separation from God, and second being returned to
the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that
deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation
forever, if it were not for God's plan of
salvation.
That plan of salvation was prepared
before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement
it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for
A&E's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the
Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, A&E's in this
instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know
as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression
were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior
do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and
gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the
opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire
and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why
it is through his grace that we are saved.......nothing we could do on our own
could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of
salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us
and God is ourselves. Effectively.......We can either keep the
commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and
suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal
progression.
I hope that answers your query,
Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I
can post an interesting perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an
LDS Forum.....just let me know if that appeals to you.
Lance Muir
wrote:
PLEASE DAVE,
I would appreciate the longer explanation so as
not to confuse those less informed about Mormon/Christian
distinctives.
When you speak of 'god', I'd appreciate you
supplying the 'god history'. When you speak of jesus (your jesus), I'd
appreciate you giving us real Mormon teaching. And on....
PLEASE SUPPLY THE REAL DEAL! I'm quite serious
on this, Dave.
thanks,
Lance
----- Original Message -----
Sent:
December 06, 2005 02:57
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
will you kindly tell all of
us how you, as a Mormon, understand these
events?
DAVEH: Getting into that will likely just
get Perry excited again, Lance! But....that has not worried me
too much in the past.....
Let me give you the
short explanation. I believe God intended A&E to
transgress. Why? For several reasons. First......to
learn the difference between good and evil. If God did not want
A&E to know about evil, why did he allow Satan to exist in the
paradise we know as the Garden of Eden? The world was not yet in a
fallen state, yet Satan seemed to have free
reign....
Second, I believe mortality is an
important step in what LDS folks call eternal progression. Without
the step of mortality, our progression back to heaven is effectively
stopped. We consider it to be damnation.
Third, LDS theology suggests that had A&E not transgressed, they would
not have been able to have had children. Just imagine the situation
that would occur IFF A&E had not transgressed, yet had descendants who
would have transgressed.
We know that Jesus was
foreordained to be our Savior before A&E even existed. (I assume
you agree with that premise.) To me, that is a good indication that
God knew what A&E would do when tempted by Satan. He then set
the stage for that event to happen, so that the plan of salvation could
unfold in a manner that God planned and
intended.
We all know what did happen.
It is my belief that God intended it to happen that way. Yet most
Christians seem to think God's plan was interrupted by A&E's
transgression. I see it exactly the opposite....God was not fooled
or impeded in implementing the plan of salvation. It was carefully
laid out and continues to be implemented to this day, just as the Lord
planned it.
Lance Muir wrote:
To DaveH:
I also would like to hear YOU on this.
Utilizing all that you know and, employing terminology that would be
meaningful to any Mormon, will you kindly tell all of us how you, as
a Mormon, understand these events?
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
December 05, 2005 07:34
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
You have brought this up in the past on TT
DaveH but it didn't last long because there is no place to go with
it.
By definition all anyone could come up with
is their own speculation. God wasn't caught blindsided. He
knew
and prepared for this "BEFORE the foundation
of the world" so it's too late for "shoulda, coulda, woulda"
now.
Do you mind if I ask why this subject is so
interesting to you??
DAVEH: May I suggest another topic of interest to
me? I am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what
would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed.
Does that discussion ever come up with you
folks?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss
here on TT? We have pretty much said all that can
be said about any number of subjects.
jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
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I maintain six email lists...
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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
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