enemies of the cross
DAVEH: I suspect you will disagree with me on this Kevin, but I do
not consider myself to be an enemy of the cross. Quite the contrary,
it is simply a device used by God's enemy to kill his Beloved Son. For
that reason, I do not idolize the cross or adorn my body or edifices
with the cross. Most other LDS folks feel much as I do about it.
preaching of the cross
DAVEH: Of course.....it would be wrong in my opinion to hide the
historical truth of what the cross is, or what it did to Jesus. That
is precisely why I am having this discussion with TTers. I think the
truth of what the cross represents is an important truth that is not
appreciated by most Christians. Nor I am offended by seeing a picture
of a cross, as it is a well recognized symbol of death. And in the
context of theology, THAT is what THE cross did to Jesus.....it killed
him. Remembering and recognizing such an event is extremely
important to my beliefs, as it should be to all Christians' beliefs.
But I do not find myself attracted to the cross in such a way that it
becomes an idol, or a memorial. Nor do I think it advantageous or in
good taste to prominently display such a representation of a device of
torture.
Now I do realize that many Christians take comfort in seeing the
cross, and closely identify with it's message as they perceive it. The
problem is that much of the world recognizes the cross as a symbol of
death. I wonder if Christians realize that when they adorn themselves
and their houses of worship with a symbol that to many people might
make them think that Christianity is a religion founded in death. I
prefer not to think of the gospel of Jesus Christ that way. While that
is certainly an event that happened to Jesus, and will happen to each
mortal who walks this earth, I don't spend much time pondering its
ramifications. Why?....Because Jesus broke the bonds of death, and
gave us life. As do many, I don't see life in the cross. If the
mother of Jesus were to see a cross after the death of her Son by means
of the cross, I suspect she would not see life there either. Nor do I
think she would have been pleased at such a sight of remembrance. And
if Jesus himself were to view a cross, I can only think the memories it
would bring him would be less than pleasant ones.
taketh not his cross
DAVEH: I've seen guys walking along the highway, literally identifying
with this passage. While I admire their fortitude and willingness to
suffer in behalf of their beliefs, I do believe they take this passage
out of context to satisfy their own needs. Kevin.......I can only
assume that you do not take this message to the literal extreme of
carrying a cross around (whether it be a heavy wooden cross as those
I've seen on the highway, or as jewelery) to give yourself
psychological comfort....? Instead, I believe this passage suggests
that we are to bear the burdens of life in a Christian manner,
following in the Lord's footsteps despite those burdens. Do you
disagree, Kevin?
But God forbid that I should glory,
save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the
world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
DAVEH: On the surface, that seems like a point in your favor,
Kevin. But, do you find the tail end to be as interesting as I
do?.......
by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the
world.
..........As I see it, Paul is saying that we should glory in that the
Lord has literally sacrificed himself for our benefit, and we in turn
should sacrifice (figuratively) ourselves to his will and the gospel.
I don't see that Paul is saying that we should idolize the cross to
bring glory to the Lord at all, but rather the cross represents the
sacrifice Jesus made for us. In return, we should not be selfish in
how we live our lives.
An d that he might reconcile both
unto God in one body by the cross
DAVEH: Yep.....he's reaffirming that the cross killed Jesus. It is
interesting that you would leave off the most important part of that
verse, Kevin......
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:
..........Wow.......Point in my favor! Not only does Paul explain
that the cross killed Jesus, but that Jesus overcame the pain,
suffering and death caused by those who used the cross to torture him.
In summary, if those are the passages most Christians use to
justify their idolization and use of the device used to torture and
kill our beloved Savior, I'd say you folks had better do some serious
introspection of your theology. Why you would think the Catholics are
screwed up for depicting Jesus' death on their crucifixes, and not
recognize the perverse intent of the designers who used the cross to
crucify our Lord, and then fail to understand true nature of the
Protestant cross and how painfully it reflects the death of the One
whose most elementary mission in life was to overcome death,
defies my astonishment!
If you feel comfortable basing your theology on the cross,
Kevin....that is your privilege. But...I don't feel comfortable at
all when I think of the suffering and death our Savior had to bear on
such a cruel instrument of torture. I am so appreciative that Jesus
died in my behalf though, that I would not chance offending the Lord by
idolizing the cross in any way.
Kevin Deegan wrote:
For many
walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping,
that they are the enemies of the cross
of Christ
For the preaching of the cross is to them that
perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
And he that taketh not his
cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
But God forbid that I should
glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
An d that he might reconcile
both unto God in one body by the cross
Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Christ
did not tell us to take up a borrowed tomb, Dave. We are told to
take up our cross. Those wearing one are sending a messsage that they
follow Christ. Those with one marking their grave are saying the same
thing. This, of course, is not always true, but that cannot be helped.
Anything good will always be faked.
To answer your other question, I criticize almost every thing about the
Catholic religion. They are as screwed up as the Mormons. Don't even
try to understand. It would be a waste of time. IMO, of course, and
that is a shame.
Terry
Dave Hansen wrote:
> *The cross, like the tomb, is empty.*
>
> DAVEH: So why don't Christians hang a sy mbol of the tomb (stone)
> around their neck or decorate their edifices with something less
> representative of the tools of God's enemies? As I see it, the
tomb
> was at least a sacred place, where Jesus' friends were relatively
> comfortable. It was also a place where they cared for Jesus' body,
> and near where Mary first saw the resurrected Christ. To me, it
> would be far more significant than the instrument that brought
such
> pain, misery and death to our Lord. I just don't understand why
> anybody would glorify something that was glorified by the enemies
of
> Jesus.....
>
> BTW.....Do you criticize the RCC practice of
> idolizing/memorializing the crucifix? I don't see much distinction
> between what they do, and what most non Catholic Christians do in
> their glorification of the cross. Just because one depicts the
actual
> usage of the cross to bring pain and death to our Savior isn't
much
> different to me than a cross that remained after Jesus was killed
and
> hauled off to the tomb.
>
> _* I think you are missing something important here*_
>
> DAVEH: No Terry.....I don't think I'm missing anything, Terry.
> Lest you forget, Christ arose from the tomb....not the cross.
>
>
>
> Terry Clifton wrote:
>
>> _* I think you are missing something important here*_ Dave.
*The
>> cross, like the tomb, is empty.* Jesus won the victory (for
us).
>> The only people who still have Him on the cross are Catholics.
We
>> "Protestants" celebrate an empty cross. The one we deserved
was
>> occupied by another, but, Praise God, no more. The empty cross
is a
>> precious reminder of how much we are loved.
>> Terry
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> */What does the CROSS "REPRESENT"/*
>>>
>>> DAVEH: I hope you don't mind me intruding on your
discussion with
>>> Blaine, Kevin. This topic is of particular interest to me,
as I've
>>> seen quite a few crosses at the sides of highways I
travel. Quite
>>> often, they indicate places where people have died, or in
the case
>>> of cemeteries.....where they are buried...........
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ..........In the past couple thousand years, many
Christians have
>>> idolized the cross to depict the death of Jesus.........
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .......which to me seems rather bizarre to me....if not
macabre.
>>> Some Christians have taken to wearing jewelery, and
displaying
>>> crosses in their abodes and places of worship.........
>>>
>>>
>>>
>&g t;> .........As I see it, those crosses depict the *cruel
tool* used to
>>> bring not only much pain and suffering to our beloved
Savior, but
>>> also the device that was used by God's enemies to kill our
Lord.
>>> This inhumane instrument was designed not only to kill
God's
>>> children, but at the same time to punitively torture them
in a
>>> humiliating and degrading way. It always amazes me that
some
>>> Christians would have such an affinity to such a devilish
device
>>> that brings pain, suffering and death to the minds of many
who see
>>> it, and especially to those who were victims of it.
>>>
>>> I'm curious as to how you would feel about something
similar,
>>> Kevin. I don't know if you have any children, but for the
sake of
>>> this discussion let's assume you do. If your enemy were to
>>> maliciously use a knife to torture your daughter for a
couple days
>>> to the point that the wounds killed her, would you be
predisposed to
>>> wear a piece of jewelry on a chain around your neck in the
form of a
>>> knife to remind you of what the guy did to your daughter?
And, how
>>> would you feel if you drove by a gun & knife store,
and saw a sign
>>> depicting knives that looked similar to the one that
killed your
>>> daughter......Would it bring back fond memories?
>>>
>>> LDS folks appreciate the dying sacrifice of our Lord in
our
>>> behalf. But we don't glorify the tool that killed him. It
sickens
>>> me to think of man's inhumanity that would bring such
pain,
>>> suffering and death to one who did not deserve it. Nor do
we
>>> idolize the cross as do so many others. Rather, we prefer
to
>>> remember his sacrifice and gl orify his Father---not the
cross--- for
>>> the resurrection of his Son.
>>>
>>> FWIW.....We have a large Christian church near us that a
few
>>> years ago put 3 large prominent crosses on their building
that are
>>> lit up at night with blue lights that are very noticeable
to the
>>> cars passing by on the freeway........
>>>
>>> http://www.rollinghills.org/about_us/campus/index.cfm
>>>
>>> .........This picture really doesn't show them very well
compared to
>>> the cars on the freeway, as it is taken from the wrong
angle and at
>>> quite a distance. I have sometimes wondered if Jesus were
to travel
>>> that road, what would he think if he were to pass such an
edifice
>>> that memorializes his death in such a manner. I wouldn't
be
>>> surprised if he would wince at such a sight. And......It
bot hers
>>> me to think that some would pain him in such a callous way.
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevin Deegan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Exactly they bought into the counterfeit.
>>>> *How art thou _fallen from heaven_, O Lucifer, son of
the morning!
>>>> how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst
weaken the
>>>> nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will
ascend into
>>>> heaven, I will _exalt my throne above the stars_ of
God: I will sit
>>>> also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides
of the north:...*
>>>> *Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides
of the pit.*
>>>>
>>>> *North Star*, which represents *Jesus Christ. *
>>>>
>>>> */
>>>> What does the CROSS "REPRESENT" Blaine?
>>>>
>>>> /*
>>>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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