Re: [TruthTalk] thinking out loud

[Judy Taylor]

 

 

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 02:49:37 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I think I agree with this.  

 

I hope you do because it is Jesus who said "I am the Way, the Truth & the Life, no man comes to the Father BUT by Me" (John 14:6) 

 

Since your thinking is not identical to scritpure,  I am not sure what is meant by you with the words "through Christ" and so "I think I agree .."

 

This is ridiculous JD, what I mean is exactly what John 14:6 says without any added anything.  How much more plain can that be?

 

I believe that Philip 2:12-13 reveals a point of truth for all men.   God is at work in us all.   But we still have choices, which you you, as well.   So I am not sure why you wrote the above.

 

Because God is NOT at work in ALL men.  He is at work in those who have 'by faith' received Christ along with the indwelling Holy Spirit... who the world CAN NOT receive.  (John 14:17)  

 

So, unregenerated man can receive Christ without the help of the Father,  he can give good gifts,   he can even live a good enough life to avoid the judgment of God  (ala Nineveh) but he can't do anything else? 

 

No unregenerate man can not receive Christ aside from being drawn

by the Father (John 6:44).  The unregenerate can receive God's temporal blessings ie: it rains on both just and unjust etc. and No he can not live a good enough life to avoid the judgment.  Nineveh temporarily repented remember?  Later on they reneged and were destroyed anyway.

 

Yes He is.  No man comes to the son except the Father draws him.    God is concerned that all come to Christ.  I see no limitations in Philip 2:12,13.   Is this draw of God a farced event in the life of the person?  No. 

 

Don't you believe Ephesians 2:1, 2?  You can't have God and the spirit of this world working in you at the same time.  Double minded ppl receive nothing from God (James 1:8).

 

This is just plain wrong, in view of scripture.  

 

No it isn't JD.  Everything I am writing is exactly what scripture is saying and since the scriptures are not contradictory you need to reconcile these in your own mind.

 

While you are busy quoting Eph 2:1,2, why not incorporate Eph 4:20-24 into the mix , as well.   That passage clearly presents both the old and the new at work within man AT THE SAME TIME.   ...  let's not forget Romans 7:25. 

 

The man in Romans 7 wanted to do things God's way and so does the person in Eph 4:21 that is "Assuming that you have really heard Him and been taught by Him... strip yourselves of your former nature (put off and discard your old unrenewed self) which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion" - So this person has made a clear

choice and is not "of two opinions or of two minds" The ppl Paul writes to in Philip 2:12,13 are believers in the church at Philippi. 

 

 So what.  When you associate John 3:21 with the Philip 2 passage,  you can see that there is a sense in which God is at work within us all.  Old Testament writers  speak of the "still small voice within."  That would be GOD.  Such an explanation offers the simplest explanation of  the fact that God draws the sinner to Christ.  

 

You mean an old testament prophet by the name of Elijah spoke of the "still small voice" - Prophets had a ministry gift anointing but in general OT ppl although in covenant with God through Moses did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.

 

Your belief that man is totally depraved of good works before he is introduced to the indwelling Spirit is fantasy.    

 

Doesn't matter how many good works they still have a heart that

is wicked and deceitful.  

 

I don't believe man is "totally depraved" in the 5 point Calvinistic sense. However, he is dead to truth and the life and light of God.  John says the condemnation is that men love darkness and refuse to come to the light. God is not working in these men.  

 

Actully, you do believe in the total depravity of man. 

 

So now you are not only going to tell me what you believe JD - you are also going to tell me what I believe also?? 

 

Its a tough job, but someone has to do it.  Look, Judy.  You believe man is born a sinner.  You believe that no one can do good apart from the influence of the indwelling.  You don't even think we can understand scripture without some sort of divination.   THAT IS BY DEFINITION "total depravity" in my book.  

 

Only in your book JD and your book isn't THE BOOK.  Look at what a mess all these smart theologians have left with their big thick books so that today the church is no better off than the Jews with

their Talmud.

 

Read Matt 7:11. 

 

Why? This chapter has to do with asking, seeking, knocking and Vs.13 addresses entering through the narrow gate with the few that find it rather than travelling the broad road - Vs.15 warns about false prophets which are known by their spiritual fruit.    

 

Did you miss the part that says "you being evil know how to give good gifts  "  ?? 

 

No, I saw that part but the ones He gives the good gifts to are those who ask He does not just pour spiritual gifts all over the disinterested even if it does rain on both just and unjust. The temporal blessings are just that. 

 

You are talking about what He does and I AM TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE EVIL ONES can do  --  give gifts that are good !!!  

 

Yeah! like Santa Claus. If you are a good little boy he will bring you a

whole bag of worldly goods. You are talking about the temporal and I am talking about the spiritual. 

 

Explain the good works of the confession of sin, repentance,  the knowing that Christ is the Son of God. 

 

Confession of sin and turning from same is normal christianity, where do "good works" come it, this is not a work it is a godly response to truth in the heart.  

 

 You are reaching, here.   What is the difference to Judy between good works and "normal christianity."  Is the giving of good gifts something we do  (ala Matt 7:11).

 

Matt 7:11 is a scripture that is used to encourage people to seek the Baptism in the Holy Spirit but these people are already born again believers.

 

If i were you,  I would immediately stop speaking of "illumination."   You are so far off base here that I am just not going to respond.   Judy now beleive in born again Christian seeking the baptism of the spirit before the hespotles  !!  who were told to wait in Jerusalem. 

 

Who said anything about waiting in Jerusalem JD. That was 2,000 years ago. I'm speaking of now in the 20th Century.  God still honors His Word for those who believe.  It may not be meaningful to you but

then you are not the whole church JD.

 

This does not prove the unbeliever has God working in him or anything like that. 

 

Of course it does.  

 

Read Ephesians 2:1,2 again and call God a liar. Your issues are

with Him.

 

 

                                         judyt                                       
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments
                              is a liar (1 John 2:4)