I appreciate your comments, Dave. This helps me to better understand
what you have either been taught or come to believe. If I may, I would
like to take the liberty of pointing out some differences in our views.
I see Jesus sweating out the coming event in the garden much as I sweat
out a trip to the dentist, or the way I felt waiting to have my chest
cut open and my heart stopped while strangers took a vein from my leg
and repaired the hoses feeding my heart. It is the waiting for
something you know is going to hurt while knowing it cannot be
avoided. It is apprehension of what is to come.
There is no doubt that this is a weak comparison. I would rather be
killed than become guilty of being a homosexual or a child molester,
but Jesus became guilty of that and much more when He took the sins of
every human on Himself. The apprehension of a perfectly innocent
person becoming absolutely guilty of every sin possible would be
something you or I cannot possibly comprehend. He suffered mentally
there, possibly as much as He suffered physically later, but that was
not what paid the price for our sin.
He may have shed some bloody sweat there, but the next stage, the
flogging, would have been much bloodier. A whip was used which had
multiple thongs, and to the end of each thong was fastened a bit of
stone or iron that hit the skin like a bullet, tearing out pieces of
flesh. Many criminals did not survive the flogging and died before
they could be nailed to the cross.
Death by crucifixion was not due to loss of blood, although that
certainly weakened the victim. When your arms are outstretched and the
weight of your body is supported only by your arms, your rib cage
cannot move, and so you cannot breath. In order to breath, you must
push yourself up with your feet and take the load off your arms. This
is hard to do when any pressure on your feet causes pain because of the
spike that nailed them to the cross. So the victim alternates, first
breathing, then suffocating, first supporting himself with his legs,
then hanging from his arms, no relief, even for a moment. The two
thieves were finally suffocated when the soldiers took a mallet and
crushed their legs, ending their ability to breath.
With Jesus it was different. Prophecy said that not a bone would be
broken and His legs were never hit with the mallet.
At the moment He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You
forsaken Me", He paid the price for our sins. Up until that time,
the Father had been with Him, but when Christ took on the sins of the
world, God could not bear to look on sin, and at that point, Jesus was
guilty of every evil thing I have ever done.
When He had done this, He gave up the ghost. No soldier took His
life. He laid it down, for you and for me. When the soldier plunged
the spear into His side, it would have lacerated the liver, and any
blood left in His body would have been almost completely drained from
it. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins on that cross. His
lifeless body was taken down from it.
Just a final thought: The Bible I use says that every saved person is
part of a royal priesthood. Jesus our Lord is high priests, and every
follower of His is one of His priests. That tells me that the first
black priest was the Etheopean eunuch that Phillip Baptized long before
1978.
I hope you can see this.
Terry
the
Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement
for the sins of the world.
DAVEH: As I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of
Gethsemane, and was finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on
the cross.
I'm certainly not an authority on this topic, nor am I probably
able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail you are
requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the Garden of
Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was bearing the burden
of our sins at that time....in effect, taking upon himself our sins.
Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At the Last Supper,
he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be shed......
[Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he
gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
[24] And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many.
..........and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly
after the Last Supper.
The crucification itself brought him much pain and suffering as
well, but interestingly the Bible makes no mention of him shedding
blood on the cross until after his death, when his body was lanced with
a spear. I believe the pain he suffered on the cross was caused by the
physical torture to which he was subjected by being nailed to that
cross, and then hung there in a manner designed to bring great
suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he suffered in the Garden
of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was the effect of
taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe brought enough pain
to Jesus that it caused him to bleed from every pore in the Garden,
John?
In order for the atonement to be functional......yikes, that is
probably not the best word to describe it, but I cannot think of a more
appropriate term at the moment...... for each of us, Jesus had to
provide a way for us to be resurrected. Without the resurrection, no
atoning sacrifice would benefit those who are bound by (physical)
death. Jesus was the only person who could accomplish the
resurrection, and for that to happen, he had to die. The pain he
suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane was not sufficient to bring death,
but that which he experienced on the cross was more than adequate.
Nobody could kill Jesus had he not been willing to die. Jesus had the
power to call angels to his side to prevent his death there, but in
lieu of that......the cross provided the means to bring about his
physical death.
So, the cross was the tool used by Jesus' enemies to kill him. He
rose from the tomb on the 3rd day, which then made it possible for all
to be resurrected. This gift of grace was freely given to all mortals,
who had inherited physical death from Adam. Just as all who are born
on this earth have no control (or option) as to whether or not they
will die, Jesus overcame that obstacle for us.
Had we not been able to overcome physical death, the need
for the atonement would have been a non-issue. Since by virtue of
the Lord's resurrection all will be resurrected, it then became
possible for the atonement to be available for those who desire it.
And as I've mentioned before, those who desire to overcome spiritual
death need only to accept and love the Lord by keeping his commandments.
Now the question becomes why do we need the atonement at all? If
all are to be resurrected, what advantage is there for an atonement?
That is where we need to consider the effect spiritual death has upon
us. As I've defined it before, spiritual death happens when we are
separated from God. Effectively, the further we are from the love of
the Lord, the deeper in hell we reside, so to speak. In order to
overcome that form of hell (and there are several), those who love the
Lord seek to become one with him. To do that, we need to become
perfect as God is perfect. Since God is without sin, and we are
sinners....that seems like an impossibility. However, by virtue of the
atonement of our Redeemer, those who accept Jesus as their Savior can
have their sins remitted, and hence become perfect (complete) as God is
perfect.....and become closer to and one with our Heavenly Father and
Jesus.
As I suggested before, without the possibility of a resurrection,
the atonement would be of little effect, as physical death would
confine us to hell.
This explanation may be a bit brief, if not a little
awkward......but I hope it answers your question, John.
have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our Mormon
friends?
DAVEH: I don't see why you would think such, John. Evidence of the
apostasy was already showing itself at the time the NT was being
written, as Acts 20 suggested....
[29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves
enter in among you, not sparing the flock
..........and Paul affirmed in his epistle to the Galatians.....
[1:6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called
you
into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would
pervert the gospel of Christ.
...........and to the Corinthians.....
[1:11] For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by
them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among
you.
.........So as I see it, the apostasy had already started in the NT
times.
why is Mormon doctrine and church organization so different from
what we read and know of the First Church and its scriptures?
DAVEH: It could be for several reasons. First, your perspective of
the Primitive Church may have changed as religion/theology evolved over
the centuries. For instance, the early Christians eschewed the cross,
yet most religions readily embrace it today.
From our (LDS) perspective, having a living prophet allows the Lord
to guide his Church in the direction he wishes it to go depending on
the needs of the time. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but to
LDS folks it is very logical. IOW....We believe that the Lord reveals
such things as the 1978 revelation allowing black males to be allowed
the priesthood because it was appropriate for that to happen at that
time. Without a prophet, such events could not occur. The same thing
happens with specific programs and organizations in the LDS Church.
Though such may not have existed in the Primitive Church, that does not
mean that it should not occur in the latter-day Church, depending on
what the Lord determines our needs to be.
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