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IYO? or, in the opinion of the Mormon
church?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: December 27, 2005 03:08
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Merry
Christmas!
the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine)
Christ's atonement for the sins of the world.
DAVEH: As
I understand it, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, and was
finalized (sealed, so to speak) by Jesus' death on the
cross.
I'm certainly not an authority on this topic,
nor am I probably able to explain the atonement in the authoritative detail
you are requesting. As I see it, Jesus suffered greatly in the
Garden of Gethsemane. Why? I believe it was because he was
bearing the burden of our sins at that time....in effect, taking upon himself
our sins. Such suffering caused him to bleed from his pores. At
the Last Supper, he explained to his Disciples that his blood would be
shed......
[Mk 14:23] And he took the cup, and when he had given
thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
[24] And he said unto
them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for
many.
..........and this was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane
shortly after the Last Supper.
The crucification
itself brought him much pain and suffering as well, but interestingly the
Bible makes no mention of him shedding blood on the cross until after his
death, when his body was lanced with a spear. I believe the pain he
suffered on the cross was caused by the physical torture to which he was
subjected by being nailed to that cross, and then hung there in a manner
designed to bring great suffering and pain, in contrast to the pain he
suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane which was caused by what I believe was
the effect of taking our sins upon himself. What do you believe
brought enough pain to Jesus that it caused him to bleed from every pore in
the Garden, John?
In order for the atonement to be
functional......yikes, that is probably not the best word to describe it, but
I cannot think of a more appropriate term at the moment...... for each of us,
Jesus had to provide a way for us to be resurrected. Without the
resurrection, no atoning sacrifice would benefit those who are bound by
(physical) death. Jesus was the only person who could accomplish the
resurrection, and for that to happen, he had to die. The pain he
suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane was not sufficient to bring death, but
that which he experienced on the cross was more than adequate. Nobody
could kill Jesus had he not been willing to die. Jesus had the power to
call angels to his side to prevent his death there, but in lieu of
that......the cross provided the means to bring about his physical
death.
So, the cross was the tool used by Jesus'
enemies to kill him. He rose from the tomb on the 3rd day, which then
made it possible for all to be resurrected. This gift of grace was
freely given to all mortals, who had inherited physical death from Adam.
Just as all who are born on this earth have no control (or option) as to
whether or not they will die, Jesus overcame that obstacle for
us.
Had we not been able to overcome physical
death, the need for the atonement would have been a
non-issue. Since by virtue of the Lord's resurrection all
will be resurrected, it then became possible for the atonement to be available
for those who desire it. And as I've mentioned before, those who
desire to overcome spiritual death need only to accept and love the Lord by
keeping his commandments.
Now the question becomes
why do we need the atonement at all? If all are to be resurrected, what
advantage is there for an atonement? That is where we need to consider
the effect spiritual death has upon us. As I've defined it before,
spiritual death happens when we are separated from God.
Effectively, the further we are from the love of the Lord, the deeper in hell
we reside, so to speak. In order to overcome that form of hell (and
there are several), those who love the Lord seek to become one with him.
To do that, we need to become perfect as God is perfect. Since God is
without sin, and we are sinners....that seems like an impossibility.
However, by virtue of the atonement of our Redeemer, those who accept Jesus as
their Savior can have their sins remitted, and hence become perfect (complete)
as God is perfect.....and become closer to and one with our Heavenly Father
and Jesus.
As I suggested before, without the
possibility of a resurrection, the atonement would be of little effect, as
physical death would confine us to hell.
This
explanation may be a bit brief, if not a little awkward......but I hope it
answers your question, John.
have I stumbled onto
something of a difficulty for our Mormon friends?
DAVEH: I
don't see why you would think such, John. Evidence of the apostasy
was already showing itself at the time the NT was being written, as Acts 20
suggested....
[29] For I know this, that after my departing
shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the
flock
..........and Paul affirmed in his epistle to the
Galatians.....
[1:6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him
that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is
not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel
of Christ.
...........and to the Corinthians.....
[1:11]
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of
the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among
you.
.........So as I see it, the apostasy had already started in
the NT times.
why is Mormon doctrine and church
organization so different from what we read and know of the First Church and
its scriptures?
DAVEH: It could be for several
reasons. First, your perspective of the Primitive Church may have
changed as religion/theology evolved over the centuries. For instance,
the early Christians eschewed the cross, yet most religions readily embrace it
today.
From our (LDS) perspective, having a living
prophet allows the Lord to guide his Church in the direction he wishes it to
go depending on the needs of the time. I don't know if that makes sense
to you, but to LDS folks it is very logical. IOW....We believe
that the Lord reveals such things as the 1978 revelation allowing black males
to be allowed the priesthood because it was appropriate for that to happen at
that time. Without a prophet, such events could not occur. The
same thing happens with specific programs and organizations in the LDS
Church. Though such may not have existed in the Primitive Church, that
does not mean that it should not occur in the latter-day Church, depending on
what the Lord determines our needs to be.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If deegan is still around, could he give us some material on
the Mormon doctrine (official church doctrine) Christ's atonement
for the sins of the world. Or Blaine or DH? I don't
care who does it, but I would be interested in a full and authoritive
report.
The question DM ask's below -- I would like to see this
answered as well.
Also, have I stumbled onto something of a difficulty for our
Mormon friends?
To recap --------- The Mormon church believes the
"apostate church" and the "first church" are two different
things. Since the scriptures of the NT belong to the First
Church and are not a part of the apostasy AND since the First Church is not
the church repaired by God with "mormon " revelation, why is
Mormon doctrine and church organization so different
from what we read and know of the First Church and its
scriptures?
jf
--------------
Original message --------------
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> ... a cross, the symbol
of the death of
> >> Jesus the Christ.
>
> Dave
Hansen wrote:
> > When I suggested similar, it brought a lot of
> > chastisement. Why do you suppose the difference?
>
> Context. I don't think you understand the value of the cross. You
raised
> its issue from skepticism concerning what value the symbol
had. I raised
> the issue from using this symbol to illustrate the
victory that Jesus
> wrought in the cross. I see power in the
cross. You see defeat. Is this
> not true?
>
> Peace
be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
>
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that yo u may
know how
> you ought to answer every man." ( Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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