Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to Dean)

[knpraise]

No offense taken.  

 

jd

 

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 

 

 

 

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To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: 1/7/2006 4:10:54 PM

Subject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to Dean)

Dean,  Don't get me wrong, here.  I do not believe the Catholic Church speaks for God.   I am talking about the members (that I know, personally) and not the RCC.  Maybe I cannot argue this point without appearing to be supportive of Catholicism. 

 

 cd: I think you could if you established a clear separation for you friends as opposed to the RCC fallible beliefs in you argument-which you are beginning to do.

 

When you speak of the Pope forgiving sins  --  it helps me, at least, to understand that the Pope or the prient in confession is an extension of the grace of God in Christ.  The doctrine that surrounds that consideration flies in the face of a persoanl relationship with Christ (for some) and is considered to be wrong (by me) for that reason among others.   but I do not see correctness in any church. 

 

cd: Then I would suggest one looks to the fruit of sin-and attempt to resist that sin for correctness to appear-this is what all men of God have done throughout the bible. If they fail to heed the truth-go on as God leads and attempt to help others. Lot who was a preacher of righteousness didn't have much help in the form of a church in Sodom yet he was at the gates of the city to do good when the angelic being appeared to destroy the city for sin's sake. Is Lot stronger than a Saint? On a different note-Jesus Christ rent the vail that separated the common man from the Holies of Holies so the only high Priest I need as a mediator between me and God is Christ. I also agree that we are to confess our sin one to another within the body of Christ as to have others pray for us but to establish another Priesthood for this work is wrong in my opinion as we already belong to the Highest order of the Priesthood-The Melchisedec Priesthood. The RCC PriestHood is in my opinion after the order of Aaron and as such is  ; ;faulty  ( Greedy men have also wanted a position between man and God). Consider this -is it al right to do wrong ( incorrectness) because others do -No? Then on the same token I will not accept a sinful (incorrect) Church because other churches are sinful Churches-There are many Churches that are not sinful (correct) as the Gates of Hell did not prevail against Christ church. For me sometimes a church isn't the building but  " where two or more are gathered in my name then I am in their mists"- Jesus Christ. Just my opinion for what that is worth :-)

 

On Christmas eve, here in the Central Valley, one of the priest gave a talk on the Catholic TV station.   It was great !!   If you closed your eyes, you would have no idea whether the speaker was Evangelical Free or Lutheran or Baptist.   I am not suggesting that this absolves any of the issues of Catholic doctrine,  but I am suggesting that this illustrates that Christ is at the center of that church for those within its membership who are devoted to Chrsit.   Not one word of the Pope, of the "right chruch," of Catholicisn as a preference over other churches.  No,.  Rather, this TV discussion was in honor of Christ.   The RCC is the quintessential "works salvationist" Christian Church.   Restitution is a big deal to the Catholic. 

It might be somewhat of a surprise to the reader, but the Catholic church no longer burns objectors.  my degree came from a Catholic school and I can attest to the fact that there is a great deal of debate within the RCC and it ranges from the authority of the Pope to the liturgy tradition (i.e. English mass or Latin) . 

 

 cd: I wish I could have also heard the Priest on Central Valley-I love correct preaching.John is it possible that your view of Idols and God hatred could have been influenced by your teaching derived from the RCC which hold a weak stance on this subject. I have learned from my studies that our environment has an huge impact on what we believe. Once in New Orleans a young black women came up to me and said " I see no nothing wrong with what these Homosexuals are doing " .John these sodomites were on their knees in front of other man in the streets giving oral sex to each other while a RCC member was complaining that her yg girls were seeing this and thanked me for being there to stand up against this sin and told the police to leave me alone-because at lease I am doing something. The office told her that if she move there with her yg girls then she should expect things like this to happen. The women then told the officer that she had lived  there before Southern Decedence was an event and that he should be doing his Job not stopping us from helping. The young black women saw no wrong because hers environment was such that this behavior was accepted as the norm. I suggest you have also been influence by you RCC environment in a similar manner. I hope you don't view this as Ad. Hom I have no wish to offend you.

 

 The RCC is in a constant state of flux   ---------   much more so than any church with which we Protestants (ooops) are associated.   Look at the American Catholic and the issue of abortion.   To object to abortion is to make contest against the Pope.   And Pope John Paul made it impossible for the Church to ever reverse itself on that issue  ---------------  something few American Catholics are aware of, apparently.   But no one is given church discipline for this departure,  Anyway --

 

cd: lol-The (ooops) is funny. John could you expand your teaching on this abortion issue you mentioned in the above-I find this extremely interesting??

 

 

When Jesus was approached by the Pharisees concerning the traditions of the church (if you will)  ,  He made it clear (to me) that  tradition was not wrong in and of itself.   Only if it led one away from God or Godly responsibilites.   Giving honore in the Jewish first century world was paying money or giving money to something.   To give honor to the Temple, although not a part of any instruction from God, was ok but if it was used as an excuse to not provide from one's [elderly] parents,  the tradition was not  grossly acceptable.  

 

cd: I agree with this-you have been studying:-) 

 

Statues are not idols.  They are not.   A statue of Mary is just that.   A prayer to Mary is just that, as well.   Neither the statue nor the prayer are used by the Church to move the parishioner away from Jesus Christ.   

 

cd: I view an Idol as something one talks too-prays too-or bows before-that is other than God.

 

Just giving you my view of scripture on this subject. 

 

cd: I appreciate your view John.

 

You ask about purgatory, almost as if you and I  disagree on that subject.   I am quite sure we do not disagree.   But I do not want to get into that sort of thing.  Some of their teachings are indefensible to us  --  and I do not want to be misunderstood.   I am giving reason why I can accept a Catholic as a brother without accepting the tenets of his faith  (or at least not all of the tenets of his faith). 

 

cd; I can agree unless the tenets of his faith is hinged on a sinful nature-then it remains to be decided if he is a brother or not by his repentance to compliance towards God's word-not my word but God,s word-which I try with a whole heart to be the same.

 

I believe that if we fellowship no one but those we agree with, well,  the church building need be no larger than a pickle barrel.  Agreed? 

 

cd: Agreed-but one can get to know another very well in a pickle barrel :-)

 

jd