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Luke writes that Jesus was born of the fruit of David's
genitals (Act 2.30): hence he was not some kind of new humanity,
freshly brewed with new material, unrelated to fallen humankind; No,
he is human like David was human, born on our side of the
fall.
And to the naysayers Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM";
hence Jesus pre-dated even Abraham, David' predecessor. But it was not his
humanity which pre-dated David; it was his divinity. And notice: he did not
say that his Father was the I AM, and that he was copying him.
No, Jesus said that he (and this before his glorification) is I
AM; that is, Yahweh, the LORD who covenants with
Abraham.
Jesus is FULLY GOD and fully man, two realities in one
person, united -- but make him anything less than God or
anything more than man and you are courting a demon, who is powerless
to save you.
Bill
Exactly !!! As an on looker (you can thank me
later) , it is obvious that Judy neither thinks Christ to be
God (incarnate) nor fully human (incarnate).
No wonder she objects to the word INCARNATE. Under
no circumstance, is Jesus incarnate.
The fact that John 1:14 has no meaning to Judy as relates to
this discussion is noteworthy , as well. The "Word" of John ,
chapter one, is defined in terms of "God" and "flesh" - yet
Judy denies that either term fully and completely applies to Christ. Which
part of Jesus is not according to scripture, she asks - and
Bill says ALL OF HIM.
Amen to that.
jd
--------------
Original message --------------
From: "Taylor"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Which part of the Jesus I believe in
is not according to scripture Bill?
All of him.
What makes Him impotent in your
opinion?
He is neither God
nor man, but something less than the former* and greater than the latter**;
hence he is unrelated to both and therefore irrelevant, just an idol you
worship.
* Lance wrote, "Jesus is God," to which Judy responded,
"How can the Father be greater than God Himself?" (Monday, January 02,
2006)
** "How can [the Church fathers] state emphatically that
Jesus is fully human ... and that his humanity is not divine?" (Monday,
January 16, 2006)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:37
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity
THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Which part of the Jesus I believe in is
not according to scripture Bill?
What makes Him impotent in your
opinion?
David,
I am not saying that the Jesus I believe in -- that
is, the Jesus of Scripture -- cannot save her,
or that she is not saved by that same Jesus.
I am saying that the Jesus she describes cannot save
her,
as he is impotent to save her or
anyone else, and if it were true what she says about the hybrid
she believes in,
we are all doomed.
And so my apologies for not being more specific. I can
see where you misunderstood me.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE
HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
> Judy wrote:
>
>> I don't see anything earthy about him.
> >>
Temptation or no temptation.
>
> Bill wrote:
> >
... then you are still in your sins and you
> > do not have a
Savior.
>
> I would have to disagree with you here,
Bill. Such would make salvation
> dependent upon her
intellectual understanding.
>
> It seems to me that Judy
knows her Savior. She just does not understand the
>
aspects of humanity about him that we are now discussing.
Nevertheless, she
> has placed faith in him, despite this, and
she knows him well enough through
> the Spirit to have
experienced the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting.
>
> David Miller.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Taylor
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mond
ay, January 16, 2006 4:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love
and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT
> DIVINE
>
>
> I don't see anything earthy about him.
Temptation or no temptation.
>
> Well, Judy, then you are
still in your sins and you do not have a Savior.
>
>
Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Judy
Taylor
> To: [email protected]
> Cc:
[email protected]
> Sent:
Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk]
love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT
> DIVINE
>
>
> The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving
from the wrath of God
> Bill
> and so do we. Our
"humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of
> creation
Bill
> Which i s spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the
cross in order to
> institute a
> "New Creation" and this
is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam
> is
earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord
from
> heaven.
>
> Your gospel is inverted
Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness
> although
he
> passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was
without sin
> where we
> are for the most part loaded down
with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to
> me
>
like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything
earthy
> about
> him. Temptation or no
temptation.
>
>
>
> From: Taylor
>
> Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way?
Why couldn't he have
> been like the
> first Adam before
the fall, ...
>
> Because the first Adam before the fall
did not need to be saved Judy. We do.
>
> Bill
>
----- Original Message -----
> From: Judy Taylor
> To:
[email protected]
> Cc:
[email protected]
> Sent:
Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk]
love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT
> DIVINE
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700
"Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> so there
is no way that this would be the same concept Bill.
>
> Why
is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen
> 1.26).
>
> Yes they did created the first Adam in
their nature and character
> spiritually - which
"likeness"
> Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into
disobedience by eating the
> wrong fruit.
>
>
Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by
procreation in
> the likeness of
> the first Adam rather
than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3)
>
> The only possible
way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is
> to
become
> conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the
sole purpose for His
> coming
> and His willingness to lay
down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our
>
place.
>
> Laying aside the fact that you are making much
too much of Seth having been
> born in the image
> of Adam
(see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with
>
killing someone who
> was no longer created in God's image, but in
Adam's),
>
> At the beginnign they were created in God's
image and now Noah who found
> grace is starting
> over
even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of
> humanity (all but 8 ppl)
> to be destroyed. I don't
believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a
> bunch of
devils.
>
> Judy, I fail to understand why that should even
prevent Christ from being
> united in his person,
> his
humanness with his divinity.
>
> I understand. It is
mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is
> something
God hates.
>
> The only thing which could have severed that
union was the one thing which
> he did not do:
> sin. Hence
in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced
> schizophrenia
> in the relationship between humanity and
God.
>
> Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every
way? Why couldn't he have
> been like the
> first
Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not
exactly
> procreated like
> us since he had no human father
so that must mess up your thesis at least a
> little.
>
> And were he not like us in every way, he could not have
produced this
> reconciliation; for what
> he would have
done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon
>
human flesh,
> and we would therefore still be in sin.
Bill
>
> Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions
which apparently involved
> passing the
> test that A&E
failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his
>
baptism.
> From: Judy Taylor
>
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006
09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> so there
is no way that this would be the same concept Bill.
>
> Why
is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen
> 1.26).
>
> Yes they did created the first Adam in
their nature and character
> spiritually - which
"likeness"
> Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into
disobedience by eating the
> wrong fruit.
>
>
Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by
procreation in
> the likeness of
> the first Adam rather
than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3)
>
> The only possible
way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is
> to
become
> conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the
sole purpose for His
> coming
> and His willingness to lay
down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our
>
place.
> .
>
> From: Judy Taylor
> To:
[email protected]
> Cc:
[email protected]
> Sent:
Monday, January 16, 2006 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk]
love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS
> NOTDIVINE
>
>
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:29:22 -0700 "Taylor"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> OK - I'm
asking Bill, what husband, and what schism?
>
> Oh, I
thought you were married. The bible says that you and your husband (if
> you had one) were to become "one" flesh, in other words the two
of you in
> coming together would be united -- and not just
physically, I might add; it
> is the marriage "union" after all.
The same is true with God. The bible
> teaches that the Lord is
"one" and it uses the same word when saying this;
> hence there
is a oneness or unity within the nature of God, a coming
>
together of a plurality in union.
>
> God is a Spirit (Jn
4:24) so there is no way that this would be the same
> concept
Bill. Sure the Godhead are One and united
> in
Spirit.
>
> And so, since you suggested that if Christ be
fully God and fully human
> there must be a schism, I was just
wondering about the schism you have with
> your man. Why instead
of schism aren't you united?
>
> In marriage between humans
it is "one flesh" Bill
>
> There would only be a schism
between the two natures of Christ if there were
> disunity
between the two.
> The person of Christ had no disunity; hence no
schism. Bill
>
> There would have been disunity "big
time" if he had a human nature - just
> like us and was in fact
wholly God ATST; schizophrenic
> would be the right term.
Also "Flesh and blood DO NOT inherit God's
> Kingdom" Bill so
what would be the purpose??
>
>
> From: Judy
Taylor
>
>
> OK - I'm asking Bill, what husband, and
what schism?
>
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:28:15 -0700
"Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> And
while you're at it, will you explain your schism with your husband,
too?
>
> (If this needs clarification, just ask)
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dean
Moore
> To: [email protected]
> Sent:
Monday, January 16, 2006 5:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk]
love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS
> NOTDIVINE
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: Judy Taylor
> To: [email protected]
> Cc:
[email protected]
> Sent:
1/14/2006 1:07:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and
trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS
> NOTDIVINE
>
>
> Dean,
> I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied
in knots . This is what JD
> has been accusing me of for so
long.
> How ironic that his mentor Bill would write something like
this. I think
> Lance just repeated it to qualify
something.
> So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality
(or nature). What
> about his saying to Philip "If you
have
> seen me you have seen the Father" We know he wasn't
speaking of his
> physical body here; so does God
> The
Father also have a schismatic personality.
>
> cd: Judy can
you define your usage of 'schismatic'.
>
> On Sat, 14 Jan
2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
writes:
> Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle of
love in the way that
> Christ's humanity is included in that
relationship. But as the humanity of
> Christ is not divine,
neither am I divine.
>
> cd: Lance at this point- How do
you define "Divine"?
>
>
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know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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