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I
know nothing about special kinds of flesh; I do know of two different kinds of
nature though, one fallen and the other
holy and pure. Ours is fallen. Jesus' was not. His was pure
and holy from birth. This and this alone
is the "great divide" Please do not put your words and concepts in my
mouth Bill.
Judy do you believe Jesus had the same
flesh as we have, that his flesh came from Mary's DNA? If ours is fallen and
his is not, then why is his not special? It would certainly be superior
to ours. Would it not? That, it seems to me, is
special.
Mainly because there was no
generational sin (called the iniquities of the fathers) to reckon with in his
case.
And please notice, Judy, that I
spoke "from my understanding" of your position. Doesn't help you to know how I
am hearing you?
And I've got another question for you,
Judy: Why didn't you climb down Dean's throat like you did mine? He actually
did claim to be speaking for you?
I don't recall "climbing
down anyone's throat" either yours or Deans Bill. Why is it impossible
to disagree with you
without your becoming
extremely upset?
I get the distinct impression that you
hate me. Bill
This is a wrong impression
and needs to be cast down.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:56
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
Certainly I think Jesus was born of God,
Dean. And I will be glad to address that aspect of his person. But before
going there I would like to clearly state that you seem to be making a
different argument than Judy's. And if you are, then my question
would not apply in the same way to you as it does to her. And so, I would
like you to be sure you are truly affirming the same things as she,
before you speak on her behalf.
From my understanding of Judy's position,
she denies that Jesus was born a flesh-and-blood descendant of David
through physical birth to Mary. She believes that God made a special kind
of flesh for Jesus and put it in Mary's womb, and that that flesh was
unrelated to fallen humankind, being only "similar" to that of us. That
is, she believes Jesus' flesh was like Adam's before he fell. Hence
because of her beliefs, Judy cannot affirm the teaching that Jesus is
a physical descendant of Adam, and that he is the physical Seed
of Abraham and the physical Seed of David, all according to the
flesh.
Why don't you let me tell what I
believe in my own words Bill - I find the above unrecognizable; it is
certainly nothing that would come
from me. I know nothing about special kinds of flesh; I do know of
two different kinds of nature
though, one fallen and the other holy
and pure. Ours is fallen. Jesus' was not. His was pure
and holy from birth.
This and this alone is the "great
divide" Please do not put your words and concepts in my mouth
Bill. Let Dean
ask me himself if he wants to know
what I believe.
You, on the other hand, write that you are
not denying the biblical teaching that Jesus was the Seed of David
according to the flesh and that he was born of David's flesh and
blood. You appear to be affirming the truth that Jesus' humanity came from
the fruit of David's "genitals" (Friberg) according to the
flesh. In short, you seem to believe that Jesus really was David's
"offspring."
Dean, that is a different position
all-together from Judy's. My question for you is, did you realize what you
were affirming when answering my question?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006
6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 1/18/2006 8:19:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus ,
neither God nor Man
The question is still out
there. What person among us indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny
that Jesus Christ, the Seed of David according to the flesh, was born
of David's flesh and blood?
Bill
cd: Nor am I denying that Bill, but what
of the power of the over shadowing of the Holy Spirit-didn't He also
contribute something to the child Jesus.It would seem to me that this
debate is not whether Christ was born of the flesh-Judy and I agree on
this-but wasn't He also born of God? We think so- you guys don't
seem to agree. Am I right bro?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18,
2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus
, neither God nor Man
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus
asked them, saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose
Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." He
said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,'
saying: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till
I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? "If David then calls Him
'Lord,' how is He his Son?"
Oh, and you know the question that you
and the Pharisees can't answer: "If David then calls him 'Lord,' how
is he his son?" Well, since Jesus is both God and man, he
is both David's Lord (God) and his son (man). That's what Peter is
saying in Acts 2.36: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know
assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both
LORD and Christ (Son of David)."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 18,
2006 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Jesus , neither God nor Man
I explained this the other day, Judy;
in fact you may return to my post on Acts 3.36 if you like. This
is a statement -- and strong affirmation on the part of David
-- in regards to Jesus' divine nature. We have been
discussing his human nature. Where you confuse the two, I do not.
Hence it is not a problem for me to believe that the deity of
Jesus predated David, just like it predated Abraham, while
later his humanity received their Seed. The one needs not
cancel out the other, unless one confuses the two -- but then, of
course, one is no longer speaking of Christ.
Work on the following passage, Judy;
it should help you with your unbelief:
"For David says concerning him: 'I foresaw the
LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I
may not be shaken. Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my
tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in
hope. For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You
allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known
to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your
presence.' Men and brethren, let me speak
freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and
buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore,
being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to
him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He
would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he,
foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the
Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh
see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we
are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right
hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of
the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and
hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he
says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right
hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.'" Therefore
let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made
this Jesus, whom you crucified, both LORD and
Christ."
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January
18, 2006 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Jesus , neither God nor Man
Jesus Himself and I agree with Him
rather than with "orthodoxy"... ie:
"While the
Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them, saying
"What think ye of
Christ?
Whose son is he?" They say unto him. The son of David.
He saith unto them.
"How then doth David in
spirit call him Lord saying The Lord said unto my Lord,
sit thou on my right
hand till I make thine enemies thy
footstool?" If David then call him Lord, how is he his
son?
Looks like you are stuck in the same
rut as the Pharisees of that day were Bill .... (Matt
22:42-46)
What person among
us indwelt with the Holy Spirit could deny that Jesus Christ
was born with David's blood
running through his
veins?
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel
to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the
Root and the Offspring of David,
the Bright and Morning Star."
-- Rev 22.16
"Men
and brethren, let me speak freely to you of
the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and
his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a
prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to
him that of the fruit of his body, according to the
flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his
throne," (Acts 2.29-30).
Although it was by way of his adoption by
Joseph that he was qualified to sit on the thrown, it
was not by way of adoption that Jesus became the Seed of
David: that came to him "according to the flesh":
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ
comes from the seed (sperma) of David and from the town of
Bethlehem, where David was?" (Joh 7.42).
"... concerning His Son Jesus Christ our
Lord, who was born of the seed (sperma) of David according
to the flesh," (Rom 1.3).
"Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed
(sperma) of David, was raised from the dead according to
my gospel," (2Tim 2.8).
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
January 16, 2006 10:14 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Are you saying, Judy, that
Mary is not of David's lineage? You had better think
this through, as Jesus absolutely must be of the Seed of
Abraham, which passes through David on its way to the
fulfillment of the promise in Christ. "Now to Abraham
and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say,
'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your
Seed,' who is Christ" (Gal 2.16). And it is not by way
of adoption that Abraham's Seed finds fulfillment in
Christ. That would be a blasphemous thought: "What
purpose then does the law serve? It was
added because of transgressions, till the
Seed should come to whom the promise
was made" (Gal 2.19).
You know, Judy, you always
say "Show me in Scripture." Well, you have been shown.
Now, is that all smoke, or are you going to live by your
words?
Bill
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Monday,
January 16, 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Jesus , neither God nor Man
Luke writes that Jesus was born of the
fruit of David's genitals (Act 2.30):
Not exactly Bill "David being a prophet and
knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
he would raise up Christ to sit on his
throne."
Right, so in Matt we have a genealogy that
shows Joseph is in David's lineage but he
is
hardly the biological father of Jesus is
he? Even though Jesus is born in his
lineage.
hence he was not some kind of new
humanity, freshly brewed with new
material, unrelated to fallen humankind;
No, he is human like David was human, born
on our side of the fall.
He did not come to this earth through
procreation Bill. He did not have a human father -
He may have been
born on this side of the fall
but he was most definitely not born fallen. One
can not be fallen and holy ATST
And to the naysayers Jesus said,
"Before Abraham was, I AM"; hence Jesus pre-dated
even Abraham, David' predecessor. But it was not
his humanity which pre-dated David; it was
his divinity. And notice: he did not say that his
Father was the I AM, and that he was copying
him. No, Jesus said that he (and this before
his glorification) is I AM; that
is, Yahweh, the LORD who covenants with
Abraham.
So?? Noone
here disputes his heritage.
Jesus is FULLY GOD and fully
man, two realities in one person,
united -- but make him anything less
than God or anything more than man and
you are courting a demon, who is powerless to
save you.
Either that or you
are courting religious spirits who are filling
your head with the doctrines they have been
promoting for
thousands of years. He doesn't have to be
fully anything. He is who the Word of
God
says He is - which
is the Word made flesh.
Bill
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