Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 05:59:41 -0800

 
 
 
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From:
To: [email protected];[email protected]
Sent: 1/24/2006 8:17:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

cd: Gosh John I agree- too much too fast-this is scary. I see my work is cut out for me :-) Don't forget the ones in John 3:21 who will not come to the light because their deeds are evil. How do they fit into your above scenario?As concerning man doing the right thing one needs to consider their motives prior to salvation as entirely selfish -to their gain- even love-John.      cd

 

I think you have asked a good question.   I am not going to give it a quick answer.  But, regarding what I said of John 3:21.  ...........  I would argue that my point  (we do good works, we come to the light later in life,  IN THIS LIGHT it is made clear (manifested) that our works have been   (and it does say "have been") the works of God (all along.)   I beleive that this is not so much a commentary of the this verse as it is an actual translation.   You don't agree?  I mean, put that verse in your own words  --  just that verse.  

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cd: John I cannot do as you request as I owe God more than to determine truth on just one verse-I have no choice but to tie verses,chapters and whole books together to determine how God is leading me and to receive his entire message to mankind. I feel that this is why you three are so much opposed-maybe to what I believe. Maybe opposed is a bad choice of words-rather this is why your group of three see things so much differently than I. I view Debbie as believing things differently than you guys. To help understand my meaning consider the following verse as ask yourself: What if I based my doctrine on just that verse without support from the entire Bible? St. Peter would be Satan-Yet we find at Pentecost His message lead by the Holy Ghost established the beginnings of the Church appx 3,000 souls were added (Acts 2:41). I say this because Act 2:47 called the group a Church for the first time. Hardly the work of Satan as J . Wesley point out in his commentary ( well it isn't actually a commentary but bits gathered from His sermons that addresses certain issues).Enjoy bro:-) 

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mat 16:24 - If any man be willing to come after me - None is forced; but if any will be a Christian, it must be on these terms, Let him deny himself, and take up his cross - A rule that can never be too much observed: let him in all things deny his own will, however pleasing, and do the will of God, however painful. Should we not consider all crosses, all things grievous to flesh and blood, as what they really are, as opportunities of embracing God's will at the expense of our own? And consequently as so many steps by which we may advance toward perfection? We should make a swift progress in the spiritual life, if we were faithful in this practice. Crosses are so frequent, that whoever makes advantage of them, will soon be a great gainer. Great crosses are occasions of great improvement: and the little ones, which come daily, and even hourly, make up in number what they want in weight. We may in these daily and hourly crosses make effectual oblations of our will to God; which oblations, so frequently repeated, will soon amou nt to a great sum. Let us remember then (what can never be sufficiently inculcated) that God is the author of all events: that none is so small or inconsiderable, as to escape his notice and direction. Every event therefore declares to us the will of God, to which thus declared we should heartily submit. We should renounce our own to embrace it; we should approve and choose what his choice warrants as best for us. Herein should we exercise ourselves continually; this should be our practice all the day long.. We should in humility accept the little crosses that are dispensed to us, as those that best suit our weakness. Let us bear these little things, at least for God's sake, and prefer his will to our own in matters of so small importance. And his goodness will accept these mean oblations; for he despiseth not the day of small things. Mat_10:38.

 

  cd: Concerning our works prior to salvation these works bore bad fruit John- not Good fruit. Can God use this bad fruit to accomplish His purpose as He used the works of Joseph's brothers when they sold him in slavery. Yes- But prior to salvation we did no good rather our service was self-motivated and lead by Satan to use for his selfish purposes-we were like our master. I believe the below quote from Whitby works for Christ as well as Satan.

 

"The disciple who perfectly understands the rules and sees the example of his master, will think it his business to tread exactly in his steps, to do and suffer upon like occasions, as his master did: and so he will be like his master." Whitby.

 

Webster Dictionary:

M`ASTER, v.i. To conquer; to overpower; to subdue; to bring under control.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

note: John I have notice that you do not answer or ignore a lot of my question and examples-please try and answer an many as you can as time provided because I spend time on research on don't want it wasted and -as I am out of work I have time for this research and later I won't be able to do so-so if you want to know what I believe and why better deal with it now. Also please note that I do not view our conversations as a debate as to determine a winner rather I view this as a opportunity to present truth and to learn truth.Thanks bro. 

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----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/24/2006 3:32:11 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

My comments below
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 1/24/2006 10:22:25 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?

 

Lets get away from “fallen nature.”  That suggests a sinful occurrence

and you guys are getting hung up on that .  No one in this discussion

believes that Christ sinned, Dean. 

 

cd:Respectfully- If one states that Christ had a fallen nature sinful nature that is what one is saying John.     It is not what I am saying. 

 

I do not like using the James passage as a proof-text for the function

Temptation, but it is the only passage I know that goes into  detail,

such as it is.   And I do not accept personal logic when I have a clear

statement that really needs no addendum.   And James 1;13-15 is such

a passage.   And so I say “exactly” because I have no other defining than

that which appears in James.   

 

From now on,  I am going to use the wording “human nature.”  Maybe

That will help a little.  And I am saying that Adam and Eve were created

wth the same human nature as you and I.  Ditto for Jesus.   If He doesn’t have the same nature, He is not like us. 

 

cd: Do you mean the pre-salvation human nature that the world has or do you mean the new nature"you and I" now hold that was giving by Christ-John? Changing terms without changing meanings will only add confusion to a complex issue-complex in the we have made it such.He is like man in every way except a sinful way.That puts us born again believers in His nature now.What if we used the term "spiritual nature" to mean Christ-like ( born again) and the term "lost nature" to mean worldly nature?In this example which would Christ have been sent in? 

Well,  I am not a dualist.  There is only one nature.  I used to believe that man, apart from Christ, had no choice when it came to sin.   I no longer believe that to be the case.   Man does have a choice.  Adam had a choice.   But because man can do the right thing does not mean that man can save himself.   We do know that justification/salvation is a process or circumstance that is not related to obeying the law  (works of the law).  God is at work in us all.  We can frustrate that purpose.   In John 3:21, we see that one works, comes to the light and IN THAT LIGHT it is revealed that he was doing the work of God ALL ALONG.   I believe that "new birth"  occurs when we become aware of that fact   --  verse 21 is the last breath of a continuous statement on New Birth as Christ spoke to Nicodemus. 

 

Anyway  -- probably too much to fast.   One nature is all there is because there is only one "humanity." 

 

cd: Gosh John I agree- too much too fast-this is scary. I see my work is cut out for me :-) Don't forget the ones in John 3:21 who will not come to the light because their deeds are evil. How do they fit into your above scenario?As concerning man doing the right thing one needs to consider their motives prior to salvation as entirely selfish -to their gain- even love-John.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

 

 

 

 

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Read the full passage carefully and you see that the old nature is as present as the new nature.  

 

cd: I believe this to be as directional advice-Being a new creature doesn't remove from one lose the ability to sin-the choice is still there but now we knowChrist- as before we were led by the fallen angel now we are led by the Holy Spirit . Paul is teaching us which direction to use that new spirit. Believe it or not most people don't even know these commandments exist and some are even told that Christ died for their future sins -so they believe all sin is covered which is error. Consider this to be speaking to babes in Christ. Tell me John what does it mean to not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

cd: So John what do you make of this verse above I noticed you made no comment on it?

Knowing how sin works is not a deterrent to sinning.  Sin and sinning is anti-logical in my opinion.   I cannot imagine a time when I have committed a sin  and knot known , at that moment,  thatI would regret it or that it was just plain wrong. 

 

cd: As the commandments are now written in our hearts and the hearts of all men I can agree with you-we knew it was wrong. The difference now is that one does not get the excitement from sin as one did prior to salvation. Rather one will detest the same sin that they at one time found pleasure in. If we did not find pleasure from it we would not have continued to sin. Thank God we now have a new spirit/nature that does not take pleasure from sinning.

 

The new law is not "commandments written in our hearts" for that would not be unlike the covenant given to those who were led by the hand out of the land of Egypt.   Proof of that fact is seen in the realization that the "rule book" from which these "commandments  were written on the heart" can never be disregarded !!   The laws of God were in the hearts of  man during OT times..............................................................  but the seal of the Spirit was not a fact.  You speak of the rule of law and I speak of the rule of the Spirit   --------------   obedience versus ontology.  I do not mean to put words in your mouth, Dean,  but that is the difference between our two views.................................  your belief in an indwelling, not withstanding. 

cd: The rule of the Spirit will lead one to keep God laws as will the bible John- this is what the above Eph 4:24 is doing-this is what the entire New Testament is speaking of- the consequents of Sin- the redemption from sin(Christ)-and the direction advice to keep one from fallen back to the former state of sin and onward to the sinless/Holy life of loving others. Surely you must see this?

 

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