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As I said, Dean, you may reference the archives if
you would like, but I am not interested it going through it again with you, as I
do not detect a willingness on your part to consider a second -- shall we say
-- opinion. And neither am I interested in what you have to offer,
as I've already been there and done that.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:27
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness (jd
2 cd)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 4:01:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness
(jd 2 cd)
cd writes: If it is true that the entire world enters like
reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to
be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence the need
of a mediator to present our case before God.
"Reconciliation" took
place in Christ, Dean. He defeated sin at the cross, thereby reconciling
the world to God; for while we
were yet sinners, Christ died for us; and if one
died for all, then all died in him. This is symbolized in
the tearing of the curtain from top to bottom. Why then the need
for a mediator? because Christ stands where the curtain once hung. What
once prevented man from approaching God (because humans continue to sin and
fall short of his glory) is now mediated by the one who is both
man and God. He did what could not be done by man alone and what he did in
man he did for man as well. Ours is thus a priest who can fully
commiserate with our struggle, in whom we approach God with boldness and
confidence through faith in him.
-------------------------------------
cd: This doesn't make sense
to me Bill-"We need a mediator because Christ stands where the curtain once
hung"?Bill- He is the mediator standing in place of the curtain. The below
is why the Bible states we needed a mediator
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of
death, for the redemption of the transgressions
that were under the first testament, they which
are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
_____________________________________________________________
2Pe
2:20 "For if after they have escaped the
pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus
Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is
worse with them than the beginning."
cd writes: If they were not true
Christians why does verse 20 state that their sin were removed because of
knowing Jesus Christ as the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into
sin again?
Verse 20 doesn't say that;
in fact, it doesn't even mention sin or its removal; rather, that
is your interpretation of this verse. I interpret it differently. Peter
is simply saying that they -- the false teachers -- having been members of
this church, have first-hand knowledge of Jesus Christ and therefore have no
excuse for denying him and returning to the pollutions of the world beyond
that believing community.
-----------------------------------------------
cd: John The verse states "they have escaped the
pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ". The "pollutions"
is clearly sin John-and the only way to be removed from this
foulness is to receive Christ as savior.They were saved and fell
John.Is this why you originally left the verse out Bill? In the below
verse"Pollutions" is clearly show as sin also-look it
up.
Act 15:20 But235 that we write1989 unto
them,846
that they abstain567 from575 pollutions234 of idols,1497 and2532 from
fornication,4202 and2532 from things strangled,4156 and2532 from blood.129
-
----------------------------------------------
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:28
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness
(jd 2 cd)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 11:12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
cd: Yes-that is why God will hold
these sins to their accountably.To think otherwise would make the
God we know a mean Spirit who punishes his creation for doing
something that they could not help
"Now all things are of God, who
has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us
the ministry of reconciliation; that is, that God was in Christ
reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their
trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of
reconciliation." -- 2Corinthians 5.18-19
cd: Yes he removed transgressions from those whom came
to receive Christ
Well, Dean, I would argue that
that is not what the passage states.
but what about those who return to sin or those who
reject Christ-are you saying they are accountable for doing
something they cannot help but to do?
No, I am not. I am saying that the
entire world enters life reconciled to God in Christ. That is a fait
accompli. There is no "getting saved" about it. They are saved, and
this a mighty work of God in Christ. Those who mature to embody this
truth by believing in Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy
Spirit, whereupon their salvation is sealed, its surety resting
in a guarantee from God himself.
---------------------------------------------------
cd: If it is true that the entire world enters like
reconciled to Christ-where is their sin for the need to
be reconciled-for sin brings the argument from God and hence
the need of a mediator to present our case before God.
-----------------------------------------------------
BUT those who knew God (see Rom
1.21) but reject Christ will eventually be lost, lest they
repent of that denial; for these are those who have trampled
underfoot the Son of God and insulted the Spirit of Grace, having
denied the Lord who redeemed them.
cd: Bill tell me how do you receive the below verse to
mean? It is in English and the words are connected to meaning behind
the words-what do you think those connections illustrate?
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not
to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known
it, to
turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them
according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and
the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
If you will trace the
context of this passage, you will discover that it begins
in chapter 2 verse 1. The "them" of 21 and 22 are thus
the "false teachers" of 2.1, who have denied the Lord who
bought them.
NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But
there were also false prophets among the people, even as there
will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in
destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them,
and bring on themselves swift destruction. ... 12 But
these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed,
speak evil of the things they do not understand, ... 17 These are
wells without water, ... 19 While they promise them liberty, they
themselves are slaves of corruption; ...
--------------------------------
cd:
I noticed you left out this verse why?2Pe
2:20 For if after they
have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of
the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled
therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the
beginning.
------------------------------
21 For it would
have been better for them not to have known the way of
righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy
commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them
according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit,"
and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the
mire."
David Miller (himself a Wesleyan in
good standing) and I had this discussion a few
months back, and we both concluded that the "false teachers" of
Peter's address were not and had never been true
Christians (i.e., believers who had once come to a genuine faith but
had later lost their salvation); rather, they were men who basically
new enough of the gospel to incorporate some of its language,
thus sounding credible, but had never been converted by its truth;
hence their intentions from the outset were not to follow Christ but
to lead people astray. You are welcome to disagree if you like, but
rather than rewrite that book from scratch, I would like to first
direct you to the archives; perhaps after reading our discussion and
tracking its dynamics, you will have a change of mind.
Just search for "denying the Lord who bought (or
perhaps redeemed) them." This should eventually get you
into that thread.
--------------------------------------
cd: If they were not true Christians why does verse 20
state that their sin were removed because of knowing Jesus Christ as
the savior-and warns them not to get entangled into sin
again?
---------------------------------------
Thanks, bro.
Bill
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