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Dean:
Are you saying, 'God imprints the law (his) on the
hearts of humankind everywhere through all time and, they have within them the
human capacity to keep (obey)? However, even should this be so and, they keep
the law while not ever knowing of Christ; thereby not believing through Him, yet
will they be damned eternally?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: February 10, 2006 19:48
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God
female?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/10/2006 2:48:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God
female?
DavH, pardon
my interruption
DAVEH: Welcome to
the discussion, Dean.
all the
above questions as one and the same question
DavH.
DAVEH: Correct. I tried to
give a variety of hypothetical cases so that depending on the answer, I
wouldn't have to repeat the question later with minor
modification.
even if they have
never been taught of Jesus Christ-as those who have been exposed to God's
word? I hope this is a fair
assessment?
DAVEH: Yes...that is pretty
much what I am asking. To expand on that, some folks (like the
Chinese) are born into cultures that either ignore Christianity, or even
condition their people to eschew Christianity. And even more prevalent
are the cultures that have substituted their own religious notions that can
be contrary to Christia n principles.....witness Muslimism. Then there
are the Buddhists, Shinto....I think you get the point. Can a kid
growing up in an anti-Christian environment a thousand years ago or so, have
an equal opportunity to choose who they will
serve??? Or can they be too brainwashed by their
culture/religion to recognize right from wrong?
God gives all men the equal chance at obtaining salvation
by writing His laws into the hearts of all
men.
DAVEH: Does not salvation by
your standards require faith in Jesus, and repentance? Can His laws be the motivating
factor for one gaining salvation without even knowing the name of
Jesus? What passages do you believe is evidence of such?
------
cd: Gosh DavH, you sure make
these tough for an old mountain boy. There is no salvation without knowing
Christ. The fear of hell that is a result of breaking the moral law
is the motivation factor, also the love of Christ that speaks of faith
in appreciation for His act that allows for our salvation is our strength to
walk on in Jesus despite persecution. To be saved one must believe they were
damned at one time and without knowledge of the law one cannot know
this -so God wrote it in the heart of man. The problem with modern man is
that fear is being removed because it is being taught we now have
nothing to fear upon salvation and the law doesn't exist for us. This is
great error.
All
know good and evil-right or
wrong.
DAVEH: Do you believe knowing
right or wrong is
required for salvation?
cd: Yes-one must admit to the
wrong (confess sin) and believe in the right way of Jesus Christ. One can do
this at home alone or in public.But the wrong must be stopped. We call that
repenting. Modern beliefs would tell us that one needs not repent after
salvation.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence
thou
art
fallen,
and
repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast,
and repent.
If
therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
It is not
the knowing of Christ that condemns
one.
DAVEH: I'm not speaking of what condemns
one, but rather what saves one. If one does not know Christ, can one
be saved? From my time on TT, I thought you folks (darest I say,
Protestants) believe that only those who know Christ can be saved. Is
that incorrect, Dean?
-------------------
cd: No you are correct
DavH.But that is God's choice of whom to save and he will get his complete
number. The below is of course speaking of the church as
a whole which is made up of parts.
Eph 1:4 According as he
hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--------------------------
All man are not equal in
that God decides whom to call (invite)to
salvation.
DAVEH: That sounds confusing to
me. I thought you were previously telling me God gives all men the equal chance at obtaining
salvation.......what am I missing here, Dean?
cd: I am beginning to wonder
myself:-) All men have an equal chance to stand of fall by how one keeps
God's moral law-But God chooses whom he want for salvation-totally His
choice.You seemed to have missed this verse the first time out so I added to
it-hopes this helps.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy
on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that
runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power
in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will
have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he
yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that
repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed
it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches
of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto
glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the
Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Is this fair of God to call
some and allow others to go onward into hell? Yes as God will give mercy to
whom He will.
DAVEH:
Hmmmmmm.........doesn't sound quite so fair to me. You are making it
sound like God is a respecter of some persons, and not others.
--------------------
cd: No, not really. I just lack the
ability to make myself clear at times. God wants all men everywhere to
repent- some do- others have gone so far into sin God has left them there.
Others he calls but they will not come-yet he know who will come but
still gives those rejecters the chance sometimes for the reason that they
will not have an excuse on judgement day for the harsh punishment. There are
seven things God hates-perhaps some have done those sins to often and he
doesn't call them for salvation-But all men have the equal chance to do good
or evil.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the
Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's
work, pass the time of your sojourning here in
fear:
Dean Moore wrote:
Everyone is born into
this world with an equal opportunity to choose who they will
serve
DAVEH: I hope you don't mind me jumping into your
exchange with JD, Judy. Do you have any Biblical evidence to support
your above theory? If not, then can you explain
how.....
cd: DavH, pardon my
interruption,but I have asked Judy if I could answer these
questions-and Judy, being the kind hearted saint that she is, has
graciously allowed me to do so:-) If my answers are unsatisfactory,or
anyone feels something should be added- then you are at liberty to
discuss the issue further.See answer
below.
1) A Chinese person born 2,000 years
ago would have had the same equal opportunity to choose as did
somebody born in Jerusalem at the same time?
2) Or, a
Chinese person born 100 years ago would have had the same equal
opportunity to choose as somebody born in the Bible
Belt?
3) Or a person born in China who was born 100 years
before Jesus had the same equal opportunity to choose as one who
lived in Jerusalem at the time of Christ?
IOW.....How as a Christian well rooted and having the knowledge of Chri
st readily available from the time you were born, and per haps relatives
to guide your in your walk in his footsteps, do you think the above
mentioned examples of the Chinese guy born in a non-Christian society
really do have equal opportunity to choose who they will
serve? To me it seems there is a definite inequality in the
circumstances in which people are born, and in having an equal
opportunity to choose who they will serve to even hear Jesus' name,
let alone accept him as their Savior, or choose to follow and serve him
when they do not have the opportunity to hear the
gospel.
I can see where you might think Jesus
would accept all men equally, but to say that all men are born into the
world with equal opportunity seems a bit of a stretch. Is it
theory, or is it Biblical doctrine?
cd: I see all the above
questions as one and the same question DavH. Do people from
different times, places ,and cultures have the same equal opportunity
with God and salvation,-even if they have never been taught of Jesus
Christ-as those who have been exposed to God's word? I hope this is a
fair assessment?
The only way I know to
answer this question is to: (1) Show how God gives all men an equal
chance at obtaining heaven,and (2) Show how God and Him alone decides
whom to to invite to heaven.
(1) God gives all men the
equal chance at obtaining salvation by writing His laws into the hearts
of all men. All know good and evil-right or wrong.
It is not the knowing of Christ that condemns
one. It is sin that brought corruption and condemned us
already John 3:18. Receiving Christ removed the condemnation that sin
placed there. All men have the equal opportunity to not sin.or
to sin. Hence all men are equal. The passage of" choose you
this say whom you will serve" is saying: Will you be good this day and
serve God or will you do evil (sin) this day and serve Satan. Regardless
what the dancing Calvinist say one cannot do both and
live.
(2) All man are not equal in
that God decides whom to call (invite)to
salvation. Men have removed themselves so far from God as
they can not find their way back to Him on their own .This is
called total depravity. The wall of sin is too great for us to breach
alone. Is this fair of God to call some and allow others to go onward
into hell? Yes as God will give mercy to whom He
will.
Rom
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I
will
have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.
May advice is not to boast by saying I already have a paid
ticket to heaven-so if I sin I have nothing to fear- because God
had mercy on our poor ,miserable souls and He could leave us as He did
the other children whom thought they also had it made because they were
son's of Abraham and believed that God owed then something
too.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of
unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not
the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Hope this answer you question DavH. As this
is my belief.
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Judith H Taylor wrote:
Everyone is born into this world with an
equal opportunity to choose who they will serve.
along with the opportunity to grow in wisdom and
grace - or in deceit and darkness... judyt
What do you believe separates ppl at birth JD?
judyt
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Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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