Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Double Minded Luther - RC (reformed catholic)

[Lance Muir]

Stephen Seagal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 05, 2006 08:22 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Double Minded Luther - RC (reformed catholic) Seems to me that M. Luther took on the opponent he could win against-rather then the evil of the RCC.There was a man -I knew-years ago that had a reputation for being a tough fighter-but upon closer scrutiny one could see that he chose his fights and walked away from the tough men-to fight the easy men. I believe that he did so for a big name and it worked.     ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 3/4/2006 4:33:03 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Double Minded Luther - RC (reformed catholic) Luther never had the courage of his convictions. Apparently there were no convictions as far as his theology of civIl magistrates & the Church - States, rule on morals & conscience. The bible says a Double minded man is unstable in all his ways!   In the beginning of his Reformation work, he said: "No one can command or ought to command the soul except God, who alone can show it the way to heaven. It is futile and impossible to command, or by force to compel any man’s belief. Heresy is a spiritual thing, which no iron can hew down, no fire burn, no water drown.... Whenever the temporal power presumes to legislate for the soul, it encroaches."   Later, iIn writing how dissenting preachers should be dealt with, he advised: "Since it is not good that in one parish the people should be exposed to contradictory preaching, he [the magistrate] should order to be silent whatever does not consist with the Scriptures."   Luther made his appeal to the civil ruler as the final judge and arbiter of truth, (rather than scripture) and believed that heretics should be delivered to the civil magistrate for punishment. When the Anabaptists in the lands of the Reformation taught the doctrine of immersion as the proper Scriptural mode of baptism, and proclaimed infant baptism as utterly useless and without divine authority, the great Protestant Reformers applied the whip, the sword, the torch, the firebrand, as well as fines, confiscation of property, and the dungeon cell to these dissenters. When the Protestant sects resorted to the civil authorities to punish heresy, it was merely a case of religious tyranny changing hands under a new religious regime. Reformed Catholics believe in capital punishment for the crime of BELIEF in believers baptism. Interestingly NONE of the 95 THESES adressed the RC Church - State! Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In writing to Menius and Myconius in 1530, Martin Luther favored applying the sword to the Anabaptists. He said:"I am pleased that you intend to publish a book against the Anabaptists as soon as possible. Since they are not only blasphemous, but also seditious men, let the sword exercise its rights over them, for it is the will of God that he shall have judgment who resisteth the power."   Calvin said “godly princes may lawfully issue edicts, for compelling obstinate and rebellious persons to worship the true God, and to maintain the unity of the faith; for, though faith is voluntary, yet we see that such methods are useful for subduing the obstinacy of those who will not yield until they are compelled”   Compare to this:    “The magistrate is not by virtue of his office to meddle with religion, or matters of conscience, to force or compel men to this or that form of religion, or doctrine; but to leave Christian religion free, to every man’s con-science, and to handle only civil transgressions.”- McGlothlin, “Baptist Confession of Faith,” p. 82. published in 1614   Baptist Leonard Busher, “A Citizen of London,” which was presented to King James and the high court of Parliament then sitting, a work entitled, “Religion’s Peace, or A Plea for Liberty of Conscience.” “For all good shepherds will divide and separate, and not force, slay, and persecute,” Busher declared. “Kings and magistrates are to rule temporal affairs by the swords of their temporal kingdoms, and bishops and ministers are to rule spiritual affair’s by the word and Spirit of God, the sword of Christ’s spiritual kingdom, and not to inter-meddle one with another’s authority, office, and function. And it is a great shame for the bishops and ministers not to be able to rule in their church without the assistance of the king and magistrate; yea, it is a great sign they are none of Christ’s bishops and ministers. If they were, they would not be afraid nor ashamed of their faith; nor yet would they persuade princes and people to persecute, and force one another to believe t hem; but would use only the assistance of God’s word and Spirit, and therewith suffer their faith and doctrine to be examined, proved, and disputed, both by word and writing.”–”Tracts on Liberty of Conscience,” p. 23.   Baptist, John Murton, in 1615, wrote a treatise entitled, “Persecution for Religion Judged and Condemned,” and presented it to the king of England,  “No man ought to be persecuted for his religion, be it true or false, so they testify their faithful allegiance to the king.” “What authority can any mortal man require more, than of body, goods, life, and all that appertaineth to the outward man? The heart God requireth.”–Id., pp. 95, 108.   John Smyth, in exile, wrote, "The prince must leave the Christian religion free to every man's conscience."   Roger Williams labeled the violation of conscience by the civil power The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience. "Heresy must be cut off with the sword of the Spirit," not "the sword of the magistrate." "the civil magistrate ought not to punish a breach of the first table of the law, comprised in the first four of the ten commandments." Which he held, were duties which man owed exclusively to God, and as such did not fall within the civil duties which man owed to the state.   No citizen is or has been more loyal to the government or more zealous for the rights of others than a historically informed, gospel believing Baptist. Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do you have a reference for us concerning these cages Luther used? see following BUT Keep in mind these guys were first REFORMED Catholics (eg REFORMERS one and all) who later converted to Anabaptism in addition in their later lives they got involved in polygamy. You can take the man out of Roman Catholicism, it is much harder to take the Roman Catholicism out of the man!   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Knipperdolling From June 24 - 25, 1535, the Bishop, with the aid of the deserter Henry Gresbeck, retook Münster. Knipperdolling, Bockelson and Bernhard Krechting were imprisoned and interrogated. In On January 22, 1536, Knipperdolling, Krechting, and Bockelson were publicly tortured and executed in Münster. Their corpses were suspended in a cage from the Lambertuskirche (St. Lambert's Church), which had been the initial focus of the Anabaptist revolution. Dean Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [Original Message] > From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Date: 2/26/2006 11:58:10 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Continuing repentance > > RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: Fw: Continuing repentancecd wrote: > > Judy did you know that M.Luther had Street > > Preachers put in oversize bird cages and > > hung up in the church even on Sunday morning > > while he and his followers worshiped God. > > I hope you understand that not all Anabaptists were good street preachers. > Some of them were polygamists who did not recognize the marriage contract of > Lutherans or Roman Catholics. Do you have a reference for us concerning > these cages Luther used? cd:To my understanding the Street Preachers Luther had put in bird cages were not polygamist-they preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. But if that is how a Christian is suppose to act then should I take a cage with me on my next trip (Lord willing) to Salt Lake City and grab the nearest Mormon I see crossing the street with two wives and put him in the cage and hang him up in the Wesleyan Church and maybe my brethren will think highly of me also? My reference for this statement is Ron Mcrae-while a Anabaptist- he is not a polygamist.Do you have the source that these people Luther prosecuted by hanging in cages were Anabaptist polygamist? > > David Miller. > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---- ------ "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!