Re: [TruthTalk] The Secular versus the Religious

Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:22:25 -0800

Evangelicals have been on the "DOWNGRADE" for quite some time now!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A king ??
 
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From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
LOL That is FUNNY!
What pray tell is an EVangelical prior to 1900??????


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
An interesting keeper for my files  --  but did he, too, believe that King James was a evangelical Chrsitian?  THAT's what I want to know................holy snikies   !!  Is the correct answer to G's question   ...  R W? 
 
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From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Roger Williams was the apostle of a doctrine which in time became the fundamental tenet of American philosophy of civil government–the proposition that the civil authorities have no jurisdiction over the conscience in religious matters, and that the civil government is divinely ordained to function “in civil things only.”
Roger Williams coined the term "wall of separation" later used by Jefferson.
 
Section 3. Freedom of religion.
 
Forced to flee Massachusetts because of persecution, Williams established a policy of religious and political freedom in his new settlement...
Rhode Island was the first colony to prohibit the importation of slaves.
Rhode Island's independent spirit was still in evidence at the close of the Revolutionary War. It was the last of the 13 original colonies to ratify the U.S. Constitution, demanding that the Bill of Rights, which guarantees individual liberties, be added.
 
ZBT National President Taylor commented, "Roger Williams was centuries ahead of his time; he defined and set the standard for the fundamental principles of religious freedom and separation of church and state long before the creators of our Constitution. His legacy of religious tolerance has allowed America to become the envy of the world, a country where religious, racial and ethnic hatred are not tolerated."
Williams was exiled by law from Salem in the Massachusetts Bay Colony after being repeatedly hauled before the Salem Court of witch-trial fame for spreading "diverse, new, and dangerous opinions" that questioned the Church...
Perhaps most heretical among Roger's many "dangerous opinions" was challenging the King of England's claim to the American colonies with the counter-claim that the rightful owners of the land were the native Americans
Roger Williams tried to persuade his fellow European settlers to respect the land claims of Native Americans and live and trade with them as neighbors, not kill them
 
New York May Have Been The First Place the Jews Came To in the New World, But Newport, Rhode Island Was The First Place They Were Welcome
 
A PLEA FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY
First, that the blood of so many hundred thousand souls of Protestants and Papists, spilt in the wars of present and former ages, for their respective consciences, is not required nor accepted by Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace.
It is the will and command of God that, since the coming of his Son the Lord Jesus, a permission of the most Paganish, Jewish, Turkish, or anti-christian consciences and worships be granted to all men in all nations and countries: and they are only to be fought against with that sword which is only, in soul matters, able to conquer: to wit, the sword of God's Spirit, the word of God.
 
THE BLOUDY TENENT OF PERSECUTION 1644
 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Interesting.
 
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From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
BTW
It was the Baptists that were killed beaten banished. It was unlawful to be Baptist in America until the revolutionary War except in Rhode Island founded by Baptists. It was these same Baptists that accepted into RI, the Jews and every other form of religion to freely worship as they saw fit. They also were the first to be fair with the Indians and claimed that the puritans/pilgrims should reimburse the Indians for the Land.
 
Roger Williams taught these concepts long before Locke.
Some say RW had a great influence on the Bill of Rights right down to the wording, and RI was the only state that would not join the Union UNTIL the bill of rights was attached.
 
The reformers never fully reformed and are thus Reformed Catholics to this day.
Calvin & Luther had beliefs that they had no courage of conviction.
The Bold reformers became as gentle as a mouse when it came to certain beliefs.

David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Some of the conflict recently has involved the ideology of whether or not a list like TruthTalk should be a secular list or a Christian list.  There is a more general topic involved here that concerns our Bill of Rights and the concept of separation of church and State.  I would like for us to discuss this topic.
 
The First Amendment of our U.S. Constitution says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."  The historical backdrop for how this law came to be written partly concerns how the Anglican church became the national religion of England since the time of King Henry the VIII.  There is this history that when Roman Catholicism was the official religion, Protestants were put to death, and when the Anglicans came into power, a blood bath ensued against the Roman Catholics.  Many came to be against the idea of theocracy because of these abuses.  The idea that men should have freedom of religion came to mean that government should not favor one religion over another, nor should religious _expression_ be infringed upon.  Hence, our U.S. Constitution adopted this First Amendment.
 
The interesting question is whether or not true believers can work within a secular system, or indeed, whether they can themselves establish and maintain secular systems.  For example, how does a Bible believing Christian function in public office, whether as a Judge in the court system, as Mayor or Governor, or as President?  Our public educational system involves this same secular philosophy.  The idea is that no religious body or philosophy should control it.  Can Christians participate effectively in such?  Can Christians be school teachers, principals, or even establish schools of education based upon secularism? 
 
Let me put forth the questions this way in order to give us a start.  If you were in the position of being able to establish a school, would you make it a Christian school or would you make it a secular school?  If you would make it a Christian school, why would you do that?  If secular, why? 
 
Also, if you were to make it a Christian school, would you think that a fellow Christian who established a secular school was wrong to do so?  If you were to make it a secular school, do you think the fellow Christian who established a Christian school would be unwise to do that?  How much freedom do we have as Christians to choose one over the other?
 
David Miller.

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