----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Turbine Developers List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: small presentation and questions


> On Tue, 2002-03-05 at 23:15, Warner Onstine wrote:
>
> >
> > I've been trying to pay attention to Maven, but am still unclear as to
the
> > overall purpose of it (I guess) or its fit within turbine. From what I
can
> > gather Maven is supposed to be some kind of code metrics system, this (I
> > assume) will be moved into commons when ready.
>
> I would like Maven to replace Alexandria. Maven is basically a project
> management and navigation tool. Maven will generate a build system based
> on a project descriptor and the only requires the project descriptor to
> work. So the build files for Turbine will be exactly the same as the
> build files for Fulcrum. From that project descriptor the build can be
> performed, source cross referencing, cvs log changes transformed into a
> web viewable form and the metrics it provides.

As I understood Alexandria (on some level at least) it was supposed to be a
better CVS, written in Java. Will Maven fill this gap? Or will it be
client-side only (I don't like saying that, but am not sure, I've read more
of the Maven documents and am impressed =)?

> It will also be a repository for development processes. We were chatting
> this morning about an article Jeff found regarding the criteria for a
> release. I have also integrated Ceki's dirlayout document which
> describes a standard project layout (this is what maven generates),
> Morgan has a great document regarding versioning.

Is this release document somewhere in the Maven site?

> We are also planning on making some continuous integration tools: a tool
> for massive builds like Gump and a tool like cruise control. Jauncarlo
> Arnez has donated an RCS ,v file parser so we can do CVS analysis and
> Tom Copeland has donated tools that help find dependencies in projects
> using byte code analysis (using BCEL).
>
> We are close to finishing the first iteration and then I'm going to try
> and use Maven for the Turbine projects and see where the holes are. Jeff
> and Pete have done some preliminary trials and they were successful.
>
> There is actually quite a bit of documentation primarily because of
> Pete's great effort. Geir helped with the DVSL system and Pete has
> extended to provide DVSL transformation for the JDepend output (what
> we're using for metrics though Stephane is working on his own tools) and
> for the JUnit tests. Things are looking good.

Docs look great, I am contemplating using Maven on some of my projects as
soon as you get some things stabilized a little (and my projects stabilize a
little).

> There is also a full Java parser in the package. I took the basic
> grammar from the JavaCC distribution and extended it, in the same way I
> did with the Velocity parser, to make it reusable and I've added JavaDoc
> parsing and I will work on indexing the javadoc output.
>
> There is a lot in the works but if I can use it to unify the build
> mechanism for all the project then I will be happy and this is pretty
> much done. If you want to make your own project descriptor it will work
> now but I'm trying to make a tool to aid in making an accurate project
> descriptor. Again, there are a lot of docs on the Maven site.

Will definitely be looking into it soon (maybe this weekend) to play around
a little.

> Maven will be used in the TDK and there will be extension provided for
> Turbine.
>
> > > On the status report I said we are shooting for a beta in the next two
> > > weeks (Martin, could you please update the site). The last remaining
> > > issue is getting Fulcrum to work with Turbine 2.2.
> >
> > Cool, if Fulcrum is going to be in 2.2, what will be the big change in
3?
>
> The code is very different and things like the view mechanisms will be
> simplified, the security has been decoupled (in a t3 branch) so that you
> can use whatever security model you want and the pipeline is now working
> well. I also hope to add BSF scripting (something Dave Bryson and I
> talked about over 18 months ago) and have a process where working with
> an application model is easier. So you have your application model and
> it is accessible via servlets, xmlrpc, SOAP, a GUI. This is more long
> term but now that everything is decoupled in t3 it can be added later
> without affecting the core.

Cool, this is what I was getting at. Thanks for the heads up on everything
Jason!

>
> > > > Just something brief and why it was necessary to do it this way for
> > > > decoupling services.
> > >
> > > I don't understand the question: are you asking why we decoupled the
> > > services? We want the services framework to be generally useful.
> > > Hopefully something that can go to the commons as well.
> >
> > Now, re-reading it, I'm not sure what I was asking =). I understand the
need
> > for de-coupling the services as there is a demand for being able to use
the
> > services independent of the framework.
> >
> > If a service is reliant on the database (ie - a particular table or
schema),
> > how will this need be met within the framework? How does reliance on one
> > service from another get met in the new framework (another way of
phrasing
> > it)?
>
> You mean inter-service dependencies? There is a graph package in the
> commons that Markus Dahm donated that I've been working on along with
> David Peugh (the author of Quilt: quilt.sourceforge.net) and I will use
> that to resolve dependencies between services so that they are loaded
> and unloaded in the correct order.

Yep, just curious how this will be handled, is this in CVS yet?


-warner

> > > > Also, what decoupled services are going to be available
> > > > for things like Struts (I will be presenting to a struts-heavy
crowd).
> > >
> > > Anything that is currently in the fulcrum repository will be available
> > > for use with any application. It is no longer dependent on Turbine at
> > > all.
> >
> > Cool, is anyone working with Fulcrum and Struts right now, or looking
into
> > how these two will fit together?
>
> I've seen people using Torque in struts but I've seen no mention of
> Fulcrum.
>
> > -warner
> >
> > > > Thank you all for your time and a truly great web framework, I learn
> > more
> > > > about it each time I want to build something.
> > > >
> > > > -warner
> > > >
> > > > +warner onstine+
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > > --
> > > jvz.
> > >
> > > Jason van Zyl
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > http://tambora.zenplex.org
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
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> --
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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>


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