Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Hi,

>This raises the question of exactly how to change it down the road.
>My interest in the jakarta-turbine-2 repo is focused on the future, as
>I want to see the appropriate parts of jakarta-turbine-3 repo merged
>into it (and plan on helping with that when the time is right).

Cool. I'll get back to you on this. ;-)

>The decoupling of Fulcrum is definitely beneficial.  The introduction
>of the pipeline is great, offering many hooks for plugging in
>additional functionality.  As suggested by Ilka (a la Tami), I
>recommend providing a Servlet API 2.3 Filter facade for it when it is
>merged back into the next release of the jakarta-turbine-2.  This will
>provided better inter-op with today's popular technologies.

Going API 2.3-only probably makes sense. We already have a service (Session
Service) which requires 2.3.

>However, as a developer and user of Turbine 3 + Fulcrum, I must
>protest that the TemplateEngineService contains unnecessary complexity
>that should be simplified before coming anywhere near the
>jakarta-turbine-2 repo.

You might want to take a look at the Turbine TemplateService. I
rewrote it early this year and moved all the mappers out into mapper
classes. I'd consider the Turbine code much cleaner than the
Fulcrum-one. However, the Fulcrum code has less core dependencies,
because it is developed with clean interfaces from the Core.

[...]

>Shall we codify this policy?  Something like:

>  Support for new view engines will only be considered when there is
>  both demand from the user community and a Turbine developer (new or
>  existing) who has agreed to maintain it.  Support is likely to be
>  dropped if there is no one available to do maintainence and there
>  are a proliferation of defect reports.

>How's that sound?

I don't like to "set these things in stone". If someone shows up that
donates support for a templating engine and it is done in a clean way,
I don't see no reason not to add it. And if it's done right, it won't
fall prey to code rot as WebMacro and FreeMarker Support did.

[...]
>Yup.  If you find the time to follow up to my response to Jonathan's
>suggested template system abstraction, I'd be happy to take any
>feedback into consideration, Avalonize it, and check that
>ContentGenerationSystem in as a proprosal for the next major release.

I've read it. One thing I want to avoid is to fall into the Turbine-3
trap: Putting too many major changes into one release: 

Basically, people that were struggling with Turbine-2 had to adapt to
a new code structure (Turbine-2 -> Turbine-3, Fulcrum), lots of
code-breakout and repackaging (Torque, Stratum, JCS, Fulcrum, lots of
commons-stuff) which partly were simply a wrong way and abandoned
half-baked (JCS, Stratum), a new core concept (Pipeline) and an ever
breaking build tool (The beginnings of Maven, where Jason was using
the Turbine repositories as his "testbed" (as he stated on one of the
mailing lists some time ago)) and almost non-existed docs.

In the end, most people simply gave up on the Turbine-3 code base,
except those who really helped developing it. That's why there are
almost no active Turbine-3 users (these seem to be jmcnally and
you. Ilka went Tami, JvZ went Maven, Plexus, Summit, jon went
somewhere completely else). Abandoning the user base with a
half-finished project (which would have gone in the direction of
Velocity if not a new generation of developers (mpoeschl, quinton,
eric, yours truly) had cropped up) would have been a real shame as
Turbine is IMHO one of the most-underestimated Jakarta projects.

BTW: Something I read some days ago: This is from the O'Reilly book
"Programming Jakarta Struts", p.15

--- cut ---
Jakarta Turbine

Turbine is a servlet-based framework and an open source Jakarta
project. Currently, there isn't a great deal of documentation for
Turbine, but it seems to be similar to Struts, with a few major
differences. For one thing, it doesn't seem to be coupled to JSP. The
focus of Turbine appears to be to provide a collection of reusable
components. A large set of components is included with the framework,
but they are quite disparate. It seems to present more of a component
library, but as it's lacking documentation, it's hard to get a good
feel for the complete architecture. More information can be found at
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/.
--- cut ---

This sums the state of the current Turbine pretty nicely. "Cool stuff
but noone knows about it, because the docs are lacking".

        Regards
                Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen          INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]        +49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/

Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services 
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development  -- hero for hire

--- Quote of the week: "It is pointless to tell people anything when
you know that they won't process the message." --- Jonathan Revusky

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