I am sorry for ignoring the patches, but the only reason is because of
lack of time.  I have gotten in the habit of filing the patches for
later examination.  But I know I get a bit irritated if I get no
response on a patch after about a week and yet I have not responded
accordingly.

Based on first impression I plan to commit your smaller patches.  I will
take the time this weekend to look at the changes to make using a single
torque installation possible.

john mcnally

On Fri, 2002-06-21 at 21:15, Stephen Haberman wrote:
> [was originally "RE: standalone patch - patched" but Byron's post
> prompted me into a long-winded discussion I'd been sitting on for
> awhile]
> 
> (The short answer to Byron's post is that the patch works for me, some
> other guy had troubles with it. I'd really like to take the time to
> improve it, but I haven't for reasons elaborated below).
> 
> The patch does work, but not as elegantly as it should be. I was going
> to sit down a few days ago and try to make it as elegant as possible,
> but got absolutely no feedback from this list on the issue (specifically
> whether my choice of renaming properties to make controlling where
> Torque reads/writes stuff much more customizable, while still retaining
> backwards compatibility).
> 
> Which is a bit of a sore point, for personal reasons, of course, but I'm
> certainly not the only one who receives an eerie silence whenever
> anything except a bug fix is posted.
> 
> Case in point is the "Status of Criteria patch" that was posted just
> before this. I'm just getting into Torque and don't know much about the
> technical viability of the patch. It seems good to me, but I can't
> really say whether it should be committed or not (nor is it my place to
> say).
> 
> But the people who do have a say in whether it's getting or not (e.g.
> Jon, John, Jason, Martin, etc.) haven't said a word about it. 
> 
> Another case is a few Turbine-3 patches I've posted to turbine-dev. Most
> are basic NullPointerException-type fixes that just get ignored.
> 
> Now, I know everyone is busy. Jon, John, Jason, etc., work on a zillion
> different projects. Scarab, Turbine-3, Turbine-2 maintenance, Betwixt,
> Avalonizing Fulcrum, Maven, JCS, etc., etc., are all projects you guys
> are actively involved. Plus I'd imagine you also have to do real work on
> top of all of that.
> 
> It just seems like Torque is getting left out a bit as you're spreading
> yourselves too thin. Granted, it's fairly stable and mature, and
> ...John...or Jason, I forget who, committed some great new data source
> code awhile ago.
> 
> Which is awesome, I really appreciate your work, but it'd also be nice
> if you could open up a little bit to people trying to help out. At least
> take a few minutes to respond and tell us why our patches suck or aren't
> spiffy enough to make it into CVS.
> 
> I can take criticism...tell me what's wrong in anything I submit and
> I'll try and fix it. Or just tell me to go to hell and stop wasting my
> time and yours. Any type of response is better than none.
> 
> Perhaps this is the result of Turbine's sub-sub-project abuse mentioned
> on the avalon-dev list the other day.
> 
> I wasn't around before the decoupling, but I imagine it was a fairly
> strong community. But now with the decoupling, plus other project you
> guys are interested in, having you guys spread out across all of the
> sub-sub-projects is weakening the community. I don't know the exact
> requirements for Jakarta projects...2-3 active developers per
> sub-project? But I feel that if some of the current Turbine
> sub-sub-projects where to apply for sub-project status, they'd be
> denied.
> 
> I don't mean to lay all the blame on you guys and say you're horrible
> project owners; you're not. And you could make a very valid argument
> that the user community is at fault for not having other people step up
> and contribute more when you guys get busy.
> 
> And that makes sense, but my tongue-in-cheek comment is that it's hard
> for people in the user community to step up when the doors aren't
> exactly being held open.
> 
> You guys do awesome work; I can't stress that enough. And we probably do
> need to have a few of you guys spread across several projects so that
> brain-sharing occurs and they all work really well together (e.g.
> Turbine-3 becoming avalonized and using Excalibur/Fulcrum components).
> 
> I dunno, just venting a bit. Please, let me know what's going through
> your guys' head. If I'm full of crap, tell me. If I have a few good
> points, a few bad points, tell me. 
> 
> This is also my first real foray into an open source community...is this
> just normal and I haven't adjusted yet?
> 
> I'll also agree to the argument that not every patch is a good patch,
> even if it works for whatever problem the author was having, that
> doesn't necessarily mean it belongs in the repository. You guys do a
> great job of screening such patches, though I think it's more a passive
> process then active, but the thing that pisses me off is that the
> screening method consists of just ignoring it.
> 
> I don't have hard statistics about how many patches are/aren't ignored,
> so maybe I'm over-exaggerating the problem because I'm emotionally
> involved. Because there is still support, you committers haven't left us
> completely high and dry. Though I don't think it's the case, maybe I'm
> looking for that personal response to every minute post that I chastised
> that guy over in scarab-dev for expecting...wouldn't that be ironic.
> 
> Dunno, I don't mean to be too harsh and I almost decided not to post
> this. But what the hell, the worst you guys can do is not respond. :-|
> 
> Thanks,
> Stephen
> 
> Ps. Please, do really respond. I'm young (it probably shows) and
> impressionable and will learn by whatever response is given, good or
> bad.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Byron Foster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 6:43 PM
> > To: Turbine Torque Developers List
> > Subject: Re: standalone patch - patched
> > 
> > 
> > Hello Stephen,  I wanted to try out this patch but I have a few
> > questions about it.
> > 
> > We've found it combersome to try and use Torque in our projects from a
> > configuration standpoint.  We've had to make application specific
> > versions of build-torque.xml file to use it in our apps.  Ideally We
> > would only work with a build.properties file and within that file we
> > would specify the necessary directories such as the torque home
> > directory, ouput directories for sql and OM java files, etc...  I know
> > that some of these properties can already be specified, but not to the
> > point that they are independent of torque-build.xml.  The application
> > would then only contain the torque-build.properties file. 
> > 
> > Does this patch address these issues?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Byron
> > 
> > Stephen Haberman wrote:
> > > Okay, for some stupid reason I assumed that the last standalone
> patch I
> > > posted would work because it worked for my maven project. I ran into
> > > some misc. problems today and in the process realized the patch
> probably
> > > never worked for either non-classpath or non-maven project.
> > >
> > > I've now tested it with/without maven and with/without the
> -classpath
> > > targets. I'm humbly resubmitting it to the list if anyone like to
> try it
> > > again (or for the first time).
> > >
> > > If I'm not approaching it the right way, am missing something, or
> should
> > > just stop trying altogether, let me know.
> > >
> > > (Btw, rather than having targets for both classpath and
> non-classpath
> > > tasks, wouldn't it be a heck of a lot easier to just have it be a
> > > property in the build.properties and get rid of all the duplicate
> > > targets?)
> > 
> > 
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> 
> 
> 
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