I have to disagree with you some. JSP isn't poor because it
FORCES you to put Java code into your HTML - if it's poor,
it's because it ALLOWS you to do that. Just because people
write bad examples of how to use it doesn't make it bad in
and of itself, does it?
Yes, I totally agree that mixing "backend" code with
"frontend" HTML IS a "bad thing". But it's not entirely
necessary to do things that way. (Okay, I'll give you some
lattitude here - AFAIK, it's not exactly elementary to use
JSP the RIGHT WAY.)
My point being, I think when you publish this, it's
important to make the distinction between "why JSP sucks"
and "why these tutorials on JSP suck."
Will Stranathan
On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:33:49 -0800
Jon Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey all, this is just the start of more coverage on why
> JSP sucks. I will
> eventually compile these mini-essay's into an essay
> titled "You make the
> decision." and publish it on the web somewhere (in other
> words, I'm
> collecting information).
>
>
> Key:
> "" <- quotes from the article
> [] <- editorial comments from the pain in the ass
>
> Article:
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/>
>
> "Now, we're big fans of Java - we've used it in the past,
> and will do so
> again in the future - but this series of tutorials isn't
> about Java. It's
> actually about an offshoot of Java..."
>
> [Suddenly JSP is an "offshoot" of Java. Right there you
> have the problem
> that people are now encouraged to write some pseudo Java
> in their JSP
> pages.]
>
> "And so, JSP was developed to separate application logic
> from the interface,
> so that changes to one would not affect the other.
> Working closely with
> developers like The Apache Group, JSP uses a tag-based
> approach (similar to
> PHP and ASP) which allows designers to make changes to
> the user interface
> without affecting application logic."
>
> [Ah...now I see...they DO slightly get it...except that
> they compare the
> "tag-based approach" to PHP and ASP which don't use a JSP
> style taglib
> approach...hmmm...keep reading...their misstatement will
> become real clear
> soon...]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page2.html>
>
> [blah blah blah about scalability...]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page3.html>
>
> "
> <%
> // asking for it!
> out.println("Waiter, can I have a cup of Java, please?");
> %>
> "
>
> [The *FIRST* example of JSP usage is embedding Java code
> in the page. There
> we go! The earlier misstatement is now clear! They mean
> that because your
> CODE is embedded in <% %> tags that that is taglib just
> like ASP and PHP!
> This is *exactly* what JSP taglibs are trying so hard to
> avoid and no one is
> getting it! LOL!
>
> Now, take that example and try making the word "cup" in a
> font size of +2.
> In order to do that, you need to embed HTML within your
> String. What will
> that look like?
>
> <%
> // asking for it!
> out.println("Waiter, can I have a <font
> size=\"+2\">cup</font> of Java,
> please?");
> %>
>
> How many strictly HTML designers do you know that can
> properly escape a
> String? On top of it, you are now no better off than
> creating a Servlet. The
> point being is that JSP simply moves the problem around.
> Before you needed
> to have an IDE and a compiler, now you just need a text
> editor.
>
> Oh wait, the above example is the wrong way to do it.
> There are better
> ways...the point being that articles such as this one
> don't bother showing
> it. They show the WRONG WAY FIRST! DUUUUUUUHHHHHHHH! This
> is another example
> of why JSP Sucks.
> ]
>
> "
> Every JSP statement ends in a semi-colon - this
> convention is identical to
> that used in Perl, and omitting the semi-colon is one of
> the most common
> mistakes newbies make. Just as an example, here's what
> happens when you omit
> the semi-colon from the example above:
>
> org.apache.jasper.JasperException: Unable to compile
> class: Invalid type
> expression.
> out.println("Waiter, can I have a cup of
> Java, please?")
> ^
> : Invalid declaration.
> out.write("\r\n\r\n\r\n");
> ^
> 2 errors"
>
> [Ok, here is the next reason why JSP sucks. They forgot a
> single ;. How many
> designers do you know that can properly read a stack
> trace that doesn't even
> give a good error message as to what the problem is? This
> is yet another
> reason why JSP sucks...it has sucky error messages
> because it depends on the
> javac compiler to get its information.]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page4.html>
>
> [This page simply continues the tradition of embedding
> more Java code into
> your page. How many designers really know what a String
> object is? It goes
> on to explain the difference between <%! and <%...gee...I
> wonder how many
> designers understand scope?]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page5.html>
>
> [Wow...it only gets better...now we are doing math within
> our JSP page and
> we are embedding even more HTML into out.println()
> statements. I love it!
> More examples of exactly why JSP sucks! The people who
> write the articles on
> JSP can't even provide a good example of how to
> "properly" use JSP!]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page6.html>
>
> [Again...yet *another* page of the exact way that you
> shouldn't use JSP.]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page7.html>
>
> [This is great! An entire page showing how JSP is no
> better than SSI!]
>
> "And that's about it for this week. We've shown you the
> basic building
> blocks of JSP, and next time, we'll be using those
> fundamental concepts to
> demonstrate JSP's control structures. Don't miss it!"
>
> [It also is the end of Part 1 of the article...where in
> the next article,
> they promise us to show us more thrilling examples of how
> to embed more
> logic in our pages and completely destroy any semblance
> of the "Model 2" MVC
> model that JSP is trying so hard to achieve.]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Yes, it is possible to do JSP correctly in such a way to
> follow MVC/Model
> 2/Pull Model methodologies. We all know that. That isn't
> the point though.
> The point is that very few people actually use JSP
> correctly. In fact, it
> can be stated that JSP almost *encourages* people to do
> it incorrectly
> because it makes it so easy to do so. Articles like this
> on DevShed one are
> a prime example of that.
>
> Instead, why not use technologies that encourage you to
> do things correctly
> and actually make it easier for your HTML designers to
> work with?
>
> These technologies are also available from the Apache
> Software Foundation,
> under the same open BSD style license. In fact, not only
> are the
> technologies 100% open, but so is the specification
> (unlike JSP which
> requires you to sign an NDA and join the JCP).
>
> You have a chance to more closely define what goes into
> your technology
> instead of waiting for Sun and other corporate vendors to
> dictate what they
> think you should do and how you should do it.
>
> You make the decision.
>
> :-)
>
> -jon
>
> --
> If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way
> to take
> your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/> &&
> <http://java.apache.org/turbine/>
>
>
>
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