I mean the more documentation the better but I was kind of hoping to
keep the documents kind of centralized or at least with a sort of
table of contents.  Otherwise we end up with the gaps that the current
docs have.

-Ian

On 2/8/07, Mark Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Wow, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking, but hadn't
> written down yet.
>
> My plan was sort of built around existing documents, and how to get us
> to somewhere reasonable, as quickly as possible.  It looked like this:
>
> 1) Overview
>
> Fix up Widgets Overview to do a better job showing the basics of a
> single widget with CSS, Javascript and HTML elements.   This doc
> should start out by discussing how to set attributes, params, how to
> instantiate a widget, pass it to the form, and display it on a page.
>
> I agree this page also needs content about Widget Statelessness.
>
> 2 Widgets and Forms
>
> Update Simple Widget Form to discuss up front the benifits of Form Widgets.
> Add information about how compound widgets work
> Add discussion how validation fits in here (With validation specifics
> in a validation document). In particular document how form widgets
> display validation errors.
>
> 3) Gather up documents like the Remote Form Widget doc, basic
> AutoComplete Docs, and whatever other widgets already have
> documentation in an "Examples of how to use Widgets" page.
>
> 4) Use the FooBall example to talk about building your own widgets.
>
> 5) Create a Widget Tips and Tricks document
>
> If other people are willing to help, I'm pretty confident that we I
> can get at least the first 4 of these documents in reasonable shape
> during the DocSprint.
>
> And if enough people are willing to help I think we might be able to
> get more examples written.
>
> --Mark Ramm
>
> On 2/7/07, Kevin Horn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Wow, you _have_ done a lot of thinking!
> >
> > This looks great! I have a couple of comments though...
> >
> > 0. Introduction
> > I think this section is critical.  It seems like a lot of confusion about
> > widgets on the mailing list stems from the fact that people don't really
> > understand what the TurboGears definition of widgets is.  Some people think
> > that they are just blocks of boilerplate HTML (they are more), and others
> > think they are super-JavaScript-AJAXian replacements for typical desktop GUI
> > controls (they are less...or at least different).  Some good work here would
> > clear up a lot of confusion, I think, and make the rest of the widgets docs
> > easier to understand.
> >
> > 3. Forms, etc.
> > One thing I think is necessary here is some discussion on how using form
> > widgets can drastically speed up development.  When I was just starting to
> > mess with widgets (granted they were a lot less mature then) I didn't really
> > grasp what I needed them for...until I found out that they would help me
> > handle both server-side validation and that I could use the same form both
> > for adds and edits.  Now I cringe and groan whenever I have to develop a
> > form in PHP, simply from all the boilerplate form HTML I have to write.  TG
> > has spoiled me in this regard, and I would like to see it spoil other
> > people, too. :)
> >
> > 4. CSS/JS
> > Definitely need some discussion on the way TG finds CSS/JS files, and how to
> > put them in custom locations.  This is a common question on the ML.
> >
> > 5. Examples
> > I think this is the other really critical section if we want to draw users
> > to TurboGears.  And I totally agree that we need to have examples for
> > _every_ core widget.  Even though these will be a little tedious to write
> > for people who have been using them for a while, it will make widgets vastly
> > more accessible to new users.  I also think that it will help pull together
> > some of the disparate examples that are right now kind of all over the
> > place.  For example...when I was first learning widgets, I was trying to
> > figure out how to use a select field and I had to go to one page for the
> > basics, another page to figure out how to use a callable to generate my
> > options list, yet another page to learn about the validator-guessing thing,
> > etc...
> >
> > All in all, I think this is a great start!  It seems to be exactly what I
> > would be looking for if a) it was already written, and b) I was just
> > learning TG.
> >
> > Kevin Horn
> >
> >
> > On 2/6/07, Ian Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Hello,
> > >
> > > As the widget documentation saga continues I become more unsure about
> > > what people are actually expecting to exist.  I have tried starting a
> > > document myself a few times and really it always is coming out as if I
> > > was intentionally obsuficating it.  A lot of the details seem to be
> > > around in multiple documents but they always stop right before they
> > > hit the real complicated stuff.  So I thought if anyone wasn't
> > > actually directly handling this that we should just start a thread and
> > > toss ideas around until we get something that makes sense and then
> > > I'll try to write that up.
> > >
> > > First off I think we need two major documents.  One that is just a
> > > boring reference of what core widgets are available and what they
> > > actually do.  The docstrings have been upgraded a lot and so this
> > > should be easy to do even if its just a beautification/summary of the
> > > docstrings.  People get scared when they see source, especially all
> > > that meta magic, although I've grown to love that magical source.
> > >
> > > The second document should be more of a what you would do in practice
> > > ie. "how to use this".   I have made a sort of outline for this
> > > document but at times it breaks down.  Maybe widget overview should be
> > > this document...  I found it really hard to make an example that can
> > > be expanded as you go to engulf all the current functionality.  Which
> > > is a big problem since a lot of good examples are missing from the
> > > current docs that could explain how all the components work together.
> > > Although some of the mentioned functionality has an existing document,
> > > like validators (FormValidationWithSchemas) and basic form
> > > usage(SimpleWidgetForm).
> > >
> > > 0.Introduction
> > >   -link to reference
> > >   -explain why widgets exist etc.
> > >
> > > 1.The Basics
> > > a.Overriding The Template(source style/package style)
> > > b.Where to initialize(ie. go over the stateless nature and how
> > > requests can walk over each other's data if you are not careful)
> > > c.How to display(using display() or that the widget instance itself is
> > > callable or using the python console)
> > > d.Using params (adding to widget, getting to the widget, how defaults are
> > set)
> > >
> > > 2. Compound/Nested Widgets
> > > a.how to nest a widget inside another widget(defining the class, etc)
> > > b.how to get params to a nested widget (need to cover repetitions as
> > > well as just named widgets, ie. FieldSet as well as
> > > RepeatingFieldSet.. these are incredibly hard to understand at first
> > > and then seem stupidly easy once you start using them)
> > >
> > > 3. Form Widget + Validation
> > >   -this is a little sloppy and inconsistent so it will be hard to
> > > explain, since validators and widgets are really not that related but
> > > _seem_ to be
> > > a.how validators are assigned to widgets(forms/schemas/inside forms)
> > > b.how a select field guesses validators(I don't really know how this
> > > works but there is something fishy here and it needs to be documented
> > > somewhere even if its just to say _always_ give them a validator or it
> > > doesn't work right)
> > >
> > > 4. Widget + JS/CSS
> > > a.source way/package way(similar to overriding template)
> > > b.go over retrieve_js/retrive_css and explain in detail how the master
> > > template must exist and the widgets must be in the uppermost level of
> > > the dictionary returned to the template for the magical inclusion to
> > > take place
> > > c. The form field id problem, one of the major reasons Tosca widgets
> > > exist even though for now i think we sohuldn't mention them(as to not
> > > overwelm new users) but only document the problem and work arounds(if
> > > we can come up with any)
> > >
> > > 5. Examples(We can pull a lot of this from a the old trac docs and
> > > then start getting rid of them)
> > > a.we need to display how you use all the core widgets(_actually_ use),
> > > my biggest pet peeve was it took me forever to figure out how to get
> > > options/repetitions to the right widget at display time, so maybe one
> > > uber form that does everything with validators would do it.
> > >
> > >
> > > Probably shouldn't say magical so many times but it seems that way.
> > > So does this fit the bill or is this not the type of documentation
> > > that is missing?  yada yada yada
> > >
> > > -Ian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >  >
> >
>
>
> --
> Mark Ramm-Christensen
> email: mark at compoundthinking dot com
> blog: www.compoundthinking.com/blog
>
> >
>

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