Credit where credit is due, the cast of Discovery knows how to make a (musical) joke at their own expense.
https://www.facebook.com/StarTrek/videos/544141186098858/ I wish they could star in an actual Star Trek series. On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:34 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 2:22 PM Adam Bowie <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I confess that I'm not so big a Star Trek fan that I can honestly >> remember many pertinent character traits of someone who appeared in two >> episodes of TOS. So Pike being a bit different to how we was in those >> episodes doesn't really worry me. But I honestly think you have to consider >> a very long running series like Trek (or Doctor Who for that matter) in a >> different way. Shows are obviously a product of their times. TOS might have >> been set in a far future, but it was also "set" in 1966. While warp drives >> or whatever aren't close to being invented, something as simple as screen >> technology has moved on vastly from what they could even imagine in 1966. >> >> So TOS becomes a kind of retro-future from today's vantage point. So you >> either adopt that static 1966-view of the future in every Trek, or you >> adjust accordingly. I'm happy that they've done that. Things won't match up >> perfectly, but they never have, and never will. >> >> As for characterisation? To me it's a little like watching a really good >> production of Julius Caesar and enjoying the performance of the actor who >> played Mark Antony. Then later seeing an entirely separate performance of >> Antony and Cleopatra, with a different actor playing Mark Antony. They are >> the same character both from the same Shakespeare "universe," but >> interpreted by different actors and directors. There's a continuity of >> character, and yet differences. >> > > This is gonna be longer than it needs to be, but here goes... > > I have seen others discuss reboots on TV in relation to live theater > casting different people for the same role... it just isn’t the same to me. > Iconic characters are going to be recast... there will be an infinite > number of James Bonds, Batmen, and James T Kirks. But these characters are > products of their respective times. There can be British secret agents who > treat women as equals, and there can be female secret agents... but none of > those characters will be Bond. And it is unfair to say that audiences are > behind the times if we refuse to accept entirely new characters who only > happen to share the same name as the originals. I loved the British series > Spooks/MI5 about a diverse group of spies both male and female, of all > sorts of racial backgrounds... they were able tell amazing stories that > were distinctly not Bond stories. In terms of Trek, JJ Abrams did an > amazing job of retaining the characterizations of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy > without altering defining traits of those characters. Kirk is always going > to be a smug, frivolous adventure seeker... or he wouldn’t be Kirk. For > that matter, JJ did a decent job with the Pike character, making him more > stoic and earnest than Kirk. Live theater will have multiple actors playing > Julius Caesar, but they won’t have Caesar kill Brutus at the end of the > play. Macbeth is never going to be the good guy. Romeo is never going to > fall in love with Juliet’s nurse. > > You’re correct that Pike was only on screen a comparatively short time on > the original series, and in a good chunk of that time he sat in a chair and > beeped. But it seems disingenuous for the Discovery writers to take from > that and assume Pike would be different merely because he was a few years > younger. But it is indicative of what the team behind Discovery has done > with Trek... they’ve taken the basic shape of the ships, a few names, a few > sound effects, but then tossed out the dynamics of what made Trek withstand > the test of time. The trinity of Kirk, Spock and McCoy was iconic... the > id, ego, and superego in constant conflict with each other, reacting to the > events of each episode. If you’re going to create a new series with new > characters in the same universe, you have to be thinking in those terms, or > you’re cheating the audience. The Next Generation shifted which character > fulfilled which role, but there was still a trio of different reactions and > actions as they explored the emotions and consequences of their missions. > Deep Space Nine had decent stories (possibly some of the best written > sci-fi in the franchise), but wasn’t very good Trek. Voyager eventually > found its way. Enterprise had it, then lost it when the Xindi arrived and > they made every character react with identical reactions and angst. > Discovery, by virtue of not making the captain the center of the story, has > wiped out the give and take found in the original series. Tilly is the > ranked equivalent of Yeoman Rand, and Trek isn’t the story of Yeoman Rand’s > journey through space. Doesn’t mean there can’t be good stories featuring > the Tilly character, but they won’t be what for 50 years has been an iconic > Trek story. > > I really want to believe that if CBS had created a brand new sci-fi series > about a war between humans and an alien race but made no attempts to link > it to the universe of Trek, I’d probably have enjoyed it. I liked Stargate. > I loved Babylon 5. But if you’re going to call it Star Trek, then dammit > Jim, you better make it Star Trek. > > >> How dark or light this season of Discovery will be is still too early to >> say. I'm not a total fan of Tilly being ditzy one moment, and a gifted >> scientific genius the next, but even the darkest of dramas do need some >> light just to show how dark the shade is. And at least she's not an >> annoying child prodigy on the bridge... >> >> >> Adam >> >> On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 5:36 PM Steve Timko <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I watched it. Too soap operaish for me. I hate those moments where the >>> plot grinds to a halt because a character is going to emote. That happened >>> too much with Billie Piper on "Dr. Who." >>> Tig Notaro was wooden. Ironically, the comedian's worst lines were the >>> jokes her character cracked. I can't believe they couldn't get someone >>> better for that role. >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 9:06 PM 'David Bruggeman' via TVorNotTV < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> FWIW, I think having the Enterprise show up at the end of last season >>>> hemmed in the show at least as much as setting it a decide prior to the >>>> first series. I suspect the new propulsion system will get ignored like >>>> the Warp 5 restriction on space travel was in during the 24th century >>>> spinoffs. >>>> >>>> That said, I think it's tricky to presume that Captain Pike was always >>>> the way he was in The Cage/The Menagerie (which happened roughly 3 years >>>> before the events currently unfolding on Discovery). He started that first >>>> pilot as a burned out captain wondering if he should hang it up (Dr. Boyce >>>> had suggested a rest leave) and ended the episode ready to get back to >>>> exploring. >>>> >>>> What I expect might give me agita is young(er) Spock. Yes, he wasn't >>>> as buttoned up serving under Captain Pike, but I'm concerned they will go >>>> to far in that direction to seem consistent with Quinto's or Nimoy's >>>> portrayals. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, January 26, 2019, 11:23:43 PM EST, Kevin M. < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 6:24 PM Adam Bowie <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think we've been here before about Discovery being in an impossible >>>> situation being an immediate prequel of TOS. Frankly, Pike extolling >>>> something that might have sounded likely in 1966 but sounds old-fashioned >>>> in 2019, is the least of anyone's worries. They're still going to have to >>>> get rid of new propulsion system at some point and explain away why no >>>> other subsequent Treks was able to use it. >>>> >>>> >>>> I can’t agree with you. It is a worry. Either the original series is >>>> canonical or it isn’t. I’m not the one who decided a second prequel series >>>> was a good idea; it opens them up to exactly this sort of criticism and >>>> more. But more than just the chauvinistic comment (which from a >>>> storytelling standpoint was a horrible thing for them to abandon... imagine >>>> the sort of stories that could emerge from a character who basically feels >>>> like Archie Bunker helming a starship, especially a starship with so many >>>> strong female and alien characters), Pike wasn’t a fun guy. He was somber, >>>> serious, contemplative. It was easier to make the character more jovial >>>> because they seem to be embarking on another very dark story arc and needed >>>> a lighter character in command, so they just changed it. They control what >>>> is canon, so they have the right to do whatever they want with the >>>> character, but it opens them up to criticism from Trekkies. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think you just have to park all that and enjoy the new series... or >>>> not. >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ll take “or not”... if it was on free media I’d probably hate-watch >>>> it the way Dave S hate-watches all things Sorkin, but I don’t need to pay >>>> CBS to do that. I’m in Nebraska... lots of things here I can dislike for >>>> free. >>>> >>>> I will try to hold out hope for the Picard series, despite the same >>>> “creative” team being behind it, it has a chance to expand the universe of >>>> Trek instead of sinking inward into its past. And while Michelle Yeoh is a >>>> favorite, a series about Section 31 sounds even less Trek-like than >>>> Discovery. >>>> >>>> >>>> Personally, I'm still enjoying this more than most. Episode 2 feels >>>> very old-Trek with an away party going down to a planet in disguise. Yes, >>>> there's an ongoing story arc, but that's to be expected. Of course, this >>>> side of the pond we're lucky that we don't need a whole other TV >>>> subscription to essentially watch just this one show. It's on Netflix here >>>> thankfully. >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 5:44 AM Kevin M. <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> It was free on the CBS All Access YouTube channel so I watched. It is >>>> better than it was when I stopped watching last season, but that's not >>>> saying much. There wasn't much to the Pike character in the original Trek >>>> pilot, but this Pike character was nothing like what little there was in >>>> the pilot (i.e.- in the pilot, Pike remarked he wasn't used to having women >>>> on the bridge, but didn't balk at Discovery's nearly all female bridge >>>> crew, supposedly 9 or 10 years earlier). Frankly, Discovery Pike is closer >>>> to early Kirk, but whatever. Still not paying for All Access to watch more >>>> episodes. >>>> >>>> Free on YouTube (limited time only) >>>> >>>> https://youtu.be/8rvMqRrtmkY >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kevin M. (RPCV) >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "TVorNotTV" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > Kevin M. (RPCV) > -- Kevin M. (RPCV) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
