On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:58:24 +0100, Andrea Arcangeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 11:43:12PM -0500, Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
<http://divmod.org/trac/browser/trunk/Epsilon/epsilon>
This lib totally depends on twisted, so IMHO it has to go in twisted SVN
repository. Otherwise why don't you move twisted.flow into divmod
repository?
If twisted.flow had been written by Divmod, for Divmod projects, that's where
it would be. Since it was written by a Twisted developer, before Divmod
existed, it went into Twisted - but since it's not being used by any Twisted
projects it is actually going to move out of Twisted into its own repository at
some point. (It definitely won't be in the next full-Twisted release.)
Well, I doubt we're ever going to optimize for that :)
Not everyone uses apt.
Ah! We have identified the real problem ;-)
For istance the only thing I upgrade in my server
is the python stack and the kernel and I use the core repositories for
that. Nothing else get updated (modulo the critical security updates).
Strangely enough, that's how apt works, if you run a stable debian or ubuntu
distribution. They even have a phrase for it - a distribution is stable and released if
it is "security supported", because it is only receiving security updates.
But to me it's also a means of avoiding unnecessary steps, when this
thing is a twisted utility lib, it can go inside twisted repository just
fine, people will split the packages anyway, you already depend on
twisted.web so what, just add the dependency on twisted.epsilon, not
such a big deal, requiring a separate epslion package that infact
depends on twisted would be even confusing, so distro will make
twisted-epsilon not just epsilon.
Releasing Twisted projects is more work than releasing Divmod projects, because
there is more infrastructure involved. All code in Twisted must support Python
2.3. Divmod sets the minimum requirement at 2.4, and will move to 2.5 sooner
after it's released. It has a smaller user-base, it is generally accepted to
be less stable.
Epsilon specifically contains code to 'hot fix' certain critical issues in
Twisted releases so we do not need to depend upon Twisted trunk, and can be
more flexible about what's installed on a user's system. Putting it into
Twisted would have the effect of blocking all Divmod releases on Twisted
releases, which is exactly not the point.
Some of epsilon will move into Twisted at some point in the future. Such a
move has a non-trivial cost in management overhead.
That said, I don't think you need to worry about an Epsilon dependency.
That's better indeed.
Despite what I said above, it sounds like Combinator (the Divmod project which
manages your Python path and automatically integrate our multi-project
repository into one PYTHONPATH entry) and an SVN checkout would be the way
you'd prefer to manage your deployments rather than actual releases.
That's cool, and in fact it is probably the best-supported option at this point
- but it is an unusual preference. Most people want to work with stable,
released versions, with well-defined upgrade paths :).
From an usability standpoint it makes not much difference given I
already track both twisted and divmod repository, but I believe
twisted.epsilon is more appropriate.
It really doesn't make any sense to me why you think so. At any rate, it's not
going to move there, period. A large portion of the reason Epsilon exists at
all is that many of its modules *can't* move into Twisted (for various reasons
listed above), and it is a lot easier to just check them into the Divmod
repository and work on them there than to have a long, unrepsonsive discussion
with the whole Twisted user-community about whether anyone needs us to not use
feature X or version Y.
Another question is why you separate twisted and divmod repositories,
what's the point? Since you seem to own both of them, why don't you just
move all stuff in twistedmatrix.com into divmod repository? What's the
need of this separation? The website can stay, I mean the development
repositories.
I am the CTO of Divmod (at least I think that's my title, I'm never quite
sure). I am also the leader of the Twisted project. I try to keep those
responsibilities as separated as I can, which is a big challenge. You are the
first person who has suggested that I should intentionally confuse them and
subvert Twisted for Divmod's commercial gain. ;-)
My suggestion is a single SVN like this:
Twisted/twisted/
Twisted/twisted/epsilon
Twisted/twisted/flow
Zope/Interfaces (twisted readonly copy)
Nevow/nevow
Nevow/formless
Nevow/forms
Axiom/
WhateverDivmodOpenSourceProject
Twisted's SVN layout should change sometime soon to break out into more
top-level directories like Divmod's, just to make packaging easier; however,
what you suggest will almost certainly never happen. The Divmod code just has
a different set of requirements driving its development.
Keep up the great work!
Thank you :). You too!
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