Am 18.06.24 um 18:36 schrieb meejah:
On Thu, 30 May 2024, at 17:05, Glyph wrote:
We should resurrect the effort to build a first-party websockets
implementation: <https://github.com/twisted/twisted/issues/4173
<https://github.com/twisted/twisted/issues/4173>>. It's been nice to
have Autobahn available, but websockets are by far the quickest and
easiest way to provide a /native/ demonstration of Twisted's
how is "native" defined? as in, part of and installed as Twisted package?
why is that desirable? why wouldn't I care about "other stuff" that is
_also_ install apart from Twisted? like eg a Posix kernel, or a Python
run-time?
capabilities. Luckily, we do not have to build an implementation
ourselves, as a maintained sans-io kernel implementation exists in the
<https://github.com/python-hyper/wsproto
<https://github.com/python-hyper/wsproto>> project. So we just need
to do a direct integration with the Resource model in twisted.web. I
will probably do some work on this project myself.
fwiw, Autobahn was built "sans-IO" pretty much from the beginning,
simply as a necessity of targeting _both_ Twisted and asyncio.
but Autobahn _is_ not zero-sans, but _contains_ a zero-sans websocket
implementation
this can be seen from the absence of both Twisted and asyncio imports,
only txaio imports here
https://github.com/crossbario/autobahn-python/blob/f38f16ba28fa253dee951068cc729089c88d857d/autobahn/websocket/protocol.py#L61
the reason for txaio is: Autobahn not _only_ provides a zero-sans
WebSocket implementation, but also respective network layer bindings (to
Twisted and asyncio), and to aggregate/factorize that code, there is txaio
Autobahn is also a complete (eg it has facilities for WebSocket standard
extensions, including deflate) and compliant WebSocket implementation,
both extensively tested using Autobahn Testsuite, which was the first
and still is the most complete WebSocket implementation testsuite
Autobahn also is proven real-world, and using both Twisted and asyncio,
and over various transports, including stuff like Unix domain sockets or
stdio or serial ..
Finally, Autobahn _also_ includes not only WebSocket, but WAMP as well -
integrated with WebSocket as one transport ..
Hello,
I don't want to tell excited developers to _not_ do a thing, but to me
this seems a little weird since Autobahn already does all of this
(including "a direct integration with the Resource model in
twisted.web"). And has a done a _ton_ of work to ensure strict RFC
compliance and high performance.
Yes, exactly, a _ton_ of work .. like writing a testsuite in the first
place and fixing/nagging upstream bugs .. from low-level (UTF8) to high
level ... testing in various real-world settings
I'm 98% sure that PRs to improve any aspects of the Autobahn
implementation would be accepted (by that project). Although IIRC it
"improve", yes, sure! "any": that depends. what is wrong with it
anyways? rgd WebSocket standard compliance, I would say it is as good as
it gets.
wasn't written with exact "Sans-IO" guidance in mind [1], the
I would say we did it without knowing there would be a name for it later
on;)
implementation is already 'fairly' separated since it supports both
it is perfectly separated (see above), including proper internal APIs
for zero-sans
https://github.com/crossbario/autobahn-python/blob/f38f16ba28fa253dee951068cc729089c88d857d/autobahn/websocket/interfaces.py#L438
asyncio and Twisted (your choice) out of the box.
It has been a few years while since I've directly worked on Autobahn /
Crossbar but I'd be happy to pair with anyone excited about this to pass
on what I do know and where things are located.
I guess what I'm saying is that maybe modifying the proposed project
slightly to become "integrate Hyper's state machine into Autobahn" makes
a lot more sense. Assuming they handle that vast array of edge cases and
I don't see a need to integrate another state machine, can you point me
to a bug? otherwise, what's the upside?
weirdness that is WebSockets ;)
...or perhaps I misunderstand what "demonstrate Twisted's native
capabilities" actually means in this context.
same here, what is "native" supposed to mean in this context? code
shipped as part of Twisted? and if so, why? why ship the world as part
of Twisted?
[1] I don't think e.g. a "threaded" / blocking backend would work well
in the current implementation, but adding an AnyIO or curio one should
be (relatively) straightforward.
fwiw, rgd Autobahn, the one transport which is missing and I am
interested in is: VirtIO
VirtIO would allow zero-copy, not only single-copy - which is already
available in Posix via UDS.
"AnyIO or curio": these are just wrappers around classic Posix sockets,
right?
I mean, Autobahn on Linux should and is using epoll already, so what
exactly is wrong with that?
--
meejah
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