> From: Doug Averch > What does Eclipse bring to the table for U2 Developers? (Slightly > paraphrased). Eclipse is an IDE that has plug-ins.
> Symeon Breen replied: > Much of this isn't what eclipse gives you - it is as a result of ibm/rocket > (or yours) effort in writing the extensions. > > The one thing eclipse gives is that it is an extensible IDE - but so is > inteliJ and so is Visual Studio, both of which I think are far better than > eclipse. I have bashed eclipse enough on this list before for you to > know my views on it... Following on to both of those comments... What I'm seeing in this discussion is that the concept of Eclipse being an extensible IDE is being acknowledged but largely dismissed. The software itself was never intended to be a complete package. It's not like "I downloaded Eclipse, now I can do all of this stuff". It's more like "I downloaded the main Eclipse component, now I need to add more components to that to create a toolkit that allows me to do stuff". This is the difference between freeware and commercially supported packages. With freeware you get pieces of solutions which you then assemble - you "pay" for "free" software with your time. There are companies that will aggregate pieces for you, and sell and support it as a package - this is the definition of a Linux "distro" which we've all come to appreciate. This is what Rocket does with their add-ins to some extent. U2Logic has made a business of extending Eclipse as it was designed. Visual Studio is also extensible but most developers prefer to stick closer to the defaults. I use NetBeans for PHP and Java (Android), the extensibility is very similar. The value of Eclipse is really in the ecosystem that forms around the core when a Lot of addins are provided by a vibrant developer community. The software has significant value to PHP and Java developers because other PHP and Java developers have made investments in creating that ecosystem. Our industry is still stuck in the "what does it do for me?" mode rather than "what can we do to extend the platform?". We're an industry of product users, not tool developers. In that mode the platform doesn't really have much value to the target audience. Are efforts by U2Logic and Rocket Software enough to create the ecosystem which will make the platform compelling? Doug and the U2 team sure hope so, but they're trying to do this alone and it's not quite working. They're building in components and wondering why everyone out there doesn't "get" it. Why are people still asking these questions? Hey, I've been writing addins for Microsoft Office (another extensible platform seen more as a product) for a decade, and hoping people would "get" it there too. I don't think Eclipse is going to have the same respect in this industry as it does elsewhere until the average person "gets" the concept of plugins, addons, modules, and extensibility. (And per my recent blogs I'm hoping people will think about how they can extend Office to integrate it with their apps as well.) Pick people want everything in front of them so that they can just get on with their work, they don't want to think about what "can" be done, they just want it working now. That's hardly unreasonable but completely not in line with the modern world when the ecosystem of collaboration ultimately creates that environment where people really can just get on with their work. I think focus of tool providers needs to shift a little from "hey, we have these plugins, why don't you use them?" to "here's information on how to extend Eclipse so you can do this stuff too". If some people in the Pick market collaborate on extending Eclipse in ways that help MV developers, then we'll see more in there for "us" - just like the PHP and Java folks (and others). The tough thing about this is that everyone wants someone else to do this stuff, and usually for free. There is no motivation to create an ecosystem of helpful tools in a new world where people still confuse free/libre with free/beer. This is a separate discussion but we need to work out some way for developer/consumers in this industry to compensate other developers with something other than gratitude for making their daily lives a little better. (Though heck we don't even have a strong MV FOSS ecosystem, so we're hardly even at the point of people expressing gratitude for freeware.) This is exactly what the mobile app markets are all about with 49cent and 99cent apps - sell a million of those and you don't need to sell for 29.99 or 799.99 per unit. This is Apple's core model for various product lines, and Microsoft is going this direction with Windows8 as well. The second generation of the extensibility model is upon us and Pick people are still not applying the model to our industry. Adapt or die, folks. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula R&D sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products Worldwide, and provides related development services Remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit http://PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno http://groups.google.com/group/mvdbms/about _______________________________________________ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users