> > I must say also that the atmosphere here, although there are not many > > posters, is a lot better (more of a hobby project) than Kubuntu. I am > > not on the Kubuntu users list but have been for some time on the > > Kubuntu dev list. I was banned from Kubuntu forums for being too > > argumentative and not putting up with the sense of superiority that > > the "idiots" (who know everything) like to portray in a sense of not > > wanting to hear anything negative about their product or Linux in > > general. > > > > It is very hard in this world (the open source, or Linux world) to > > offer some feedback that is along the lines of "you know, maybe you > > should think about this a little more." People like to portray that > > they are so awesome, when in effect....
Very true. I too am glad we can consider ourselves a community where anyone can freely express themselves and not be bashed for it, which is sadly the case in many discussion boards and that is the very plague of the Linux community - zealots and ignorants. On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 19:46 +0200, Xen wrote: > Hi, > > Without wanting to take away from the current efforts and progress, I > had still wanted to point out that, (when I was writing this email a > week ago), ... > > As a casual observer (such as I am) the questions of the questionaire > as you put it were or are very much directed in a certain fashion and > may or would not represent the full spectrum of opinions a user or > users may have. > > In that sense it might construe the direction, or a direction, of the > project, in a way that is /congruent/ with what is /expected/ of what > users find important, rather than what the full spectrum of their > thought would be. > > What I mean is that the questions pertained only to Ubuntu Gnome's > small part in delivering this product, as compared to the entire > product that is delivered. A casual user will by default not care or > know about the mechanics of the open source world in the sense that > he/she will be able to make the distinction between "Ubuntu Gnome's > part" and the full fledged Gnome operating system as it is presented > to him/her. > > Do you see what I mean? > > To a Linux enthusiast: Gnome is one product, Ubuntu Gnome is a > distribution or a packaging. > > To a casual human being who is in it for the good times: Ubuntu Gnome > is a thing that works in a certain way that would be described by the > word "Gnome", ie. the desktop manager or environment exemplify > exemplifies the entire product for him/her. > > That's what the user sees. That's what the user experiences. He/she > experiences GNOME. But since Ubuntu Gnome is not responsible for > GNOME, that creates a bit (and not a small bit) of confusion and a > schism and chasm in understanding and a very weird way of relaying > responsibility elsewhere that is just incomprehensible to a user. > > Most people in Linux do not see this schism and this chasm. They > consider it natural because they have been told at some point that it > is. But a regular user is not interested in "the number of > contributors" or "the artwork" per se. He/she wants the entire > experience to be good or to work, which would mean he/she would have > remarks about the Gnome product mostly, because the distinction > between Gnome and Ubuntu Gnome can not be had for someone who is not > well versed in such things. > > (A bit the same that a regular Windows user does not really know the > distinction between "Explorer" and "Internet Explorer" which are two > different things). > > So a regular user coming to that poll will think "huh?" "these are not > the things I was concerned about". "Oh, it is a community thing. Hmm..." > > And so he/she does the best to answer according to that poll. But a > regular user is not even on this mailing list and so would not take > this survey. So the image is coloured already by vast amounts of > experience (and forgetting) most people on this list have. > > Nevertheless, Ali/Amjjawad. > > > I am deeply grateful for the way you are tackling this and leading or > trying to be a leader in Ubuntu Gnome. You lead and enthuse with > compassion, strength, and above all, emotion. You care, and you don't > care to show either. You say what's on your heart and a lot of Linux > people can learn (or remember) from that. > > So thank you for being here and being an inspiration to me at least. > > I am not even using Gnome, I haven't had a computer for months, now I > have a laptop again and it runs... bababa Windows 7 Professional. And > I want to put Kubuntu 15.10 and OpenSuSE 13.2 on it, just for kicks, I > am getting pretty comfy in Windows. Never been that comfy in Linux, as > far as I'm concerned. > > Anyway. > > I must say also that the atmosphere here, although there are not many > posters, is a lot better (more of a hobby project) than Kubuntu. I am > not on the Kubuntu users list but have been for some time on the > Kubuntu dev list. I was banned from Kubuntu forums for being too > argumentative and not putting up with the sense of superiority that > the "idiots" (who know everything) like to portray in a sense of not > wanting to hear anything negative about their product or Linux in > general. > > It is very hard in this world (the open source, or Linux world) to > offer some feedback that is along the lines of "you know, maybe you > should think about this a little more." People like to portray that > they are so awesome, when in effect.... > > For example, and I think this goes the same for Ubuntu Gnome. There is > no Kubuntu documentation whatsoever really. You are directed to Ubuntu > documentation, but Ubuntu documentation is equally badly written and > with a political objective. > > Kubuntu is just a small team who do all the work. Yet they don't > really invite community to cooperate. They wan't contributors, but not > community. By contrast, when I was with OpenSUSE years ago there was a > wiki and it was fun to edit it, and I could have my own page without > any issue, and so on. I have not even seen that type of community > presence with Kubuntu. > > Of course, if I would espouse my own views on that Kubuntu wiki, it > would not be welcome. You have to fall in line with the image as if > you are an employee "contributing" to the product, which means you > choose to uphold the Ubuntu and Kubuntu code of conduct, which means > you cannot disagree, etc. etc. There is also not really any Ubuntu community > since it is also a "driven" project. > > By contrast the OpenSUSE website has vast documentation, the > contributors on the forums (at least the Dutch people) are a bit of > the same arrogant bastards, but my experience with OpenSUSE is that it > is much more ...thorough or decent or dependable in the sense that > there are just many more people contributing (voluntarily, without > being pushed) which means that not everyone is /rushing all the time/ > and people actually have time to write something good. > > My impression also with Ubuntu Gnome, as you have told, is that it is > a few people pulling the cart and even those people are overexerting > themselves. > > No time, no time, no time. > > Part of the problem lies in the attitude towards the goals. And that > depends on whether they feel responsible for the entire user > experience. Whether they can feel comfortable about delivering an > entire product. Or whether the product is haphazard like the efforts > and the documentation and so on. > > The Kubuntu people ushered me out because they had too many concerns > about coming across as "awesome" while not really being it. They keep > repeating that line, how awesome they all are, like some sort of > propaganda machine. (I once didn't come out of the house nor watch TV > or anything for 3 months. I was flabbergasted by the amount of Dutch > propaganda on Dutch TV, proclaiming how great we all are..... yeah > right). If you have to say how awesome you are (to each other) then > you are not it. > > But any of those thoughts were not welcome on those Kubuntu forums, > sorry to say. > > I don't know why Ubuntu is such a difficult beast. There are so many > smaller Ubuntu derivatives but they can live because of all the money > behind Ubuntu. I don't have a sense of community here or there (more > here than there) but the troublesome thing is.... > > Like the other poster said. > > You try to get in, but there is no one to welcome you (except you, perhaps). > > And you try to be a contributor, but there is no where you can easily > contribute. The bars are too high. > > At Kubuntu they ask for people helping them with code integration or > github integration or migrations or package updates or whatever, which > is like *really specialist work*. Git itself is a thoroughly difficult > beast especially if you don't have to fuck up which is a pertinent > problem in Git from what I have seen :P. Being allowed to fuck up > makes life a lot easier :P. > > So how can you contribute? You go to the forums, where you are ushered > out or told you can't have a say in anything unless you get your hands > dirty, for which there are scarcely any opportunities. > > Doing package work with Git is really a nightmare. Sorry to say. > Devised and designed by Linus. Says enough ;-). > > And then you go to Windows and there is a reasonably nice GUI for Git > from Github that doesn't even exist in Linux ;-). > > Anyway. > > Having a dependable, nice, easy-to-contribute-to-wiki is really the > hallmark of a good open source system and I've found it lacking in the > Ubuntu ecosphere. Just go to the Ubuntu wiki. There is almost nothing > there!! The wiki has links that lead OUT of the wiki and there is no > information on the wiki whatsoever that I can find. I mean, what the > ...fuck? There is no (technical) information anywhere but there is the > ubiquitoes "Get Involved" link. > > But you can't get involved because there is no wiki to get involved on. > > Really. The utmost basics and they are not right, and when you tell > people they don't want to hear. Any case. > > > > Ali, I am glad we have you at the rudder. Even if it is just some > person, one person, expressing himself, his love and his gripes, that > is enough. > > Regards, > > And pardon my language. > > > Bart. > > > > > > Nevertheless I am deeply grateful for the way you are tackling this > Ali/Amjjawad. > > Quoting Ali/amjjawad <[email protected]>: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > Please check: > > https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time-results/ > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > -- > > Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us." > > > > Best Regards, > > Ali/amjjawad <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad> > > > > *http://kibo.computer <http://kibo.computer>* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu > > GNOME <http://ubuntugnome.org/> > > > > > > > -- Sent using Evolution from Ubuntu Nothing ruins creativity like too many voices weighing in. We call it the Ice Cream Principle. Tell 10 people to go get ice cream with one condition: they all have to agree on one flavour. That flavour is going to be chocolate or vanilla every time. Groups of people don't agree on what's cool or interesting, they agree on what's easy to agree on.
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