Yes. I'm sorry for how intense it got, we wanted the same thing the whole time, but we were both confused as to what was going on. On Jul 20, 2013 5:57 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I seem to have misunderstood the whole discussion. > When I read it again I see what you mean and thinks > that we both wanted the same thing all the time. > > > 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <[email protected]> > >> Nothing. Omar asked a question about a corner case. I answered him, and >> then you started saying things that made no sense as a response to what I >> was saying. My response applied only to that one device in question. >> On Jul 20, 2013 5:50 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Of course the desktop interface will support multiple windows. No one >>> have ever said otherwise? >>> The desktop experience will most probably be very similar to Unity7 >>> except for the improved >>> indicators in Unity8. >>> >>> Canonical have already started that Ubuntu will be one code base, >>> regardless of the device >>> it's run on. Already today you can dynamically switch between mobile and >>> tablet interface in >>> Unity8 when the desktop interface is ready you will be able to switch >>> with that too. All >>> devices will of cource run appropriate interface. >>> >>> I can't really understand what you want to change? >>> >>> >>> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <[email protected]> >>> >>>> I'm not talking about putting this on a 7" tablet. You haven't been >>>> listening to me. >>>> >>>> There are three form factors. >>>> -Desktop >>>> -Tablet >>>> -Phone >>>> >>>> We know what the tablet and phone Unity8 interfaces look like. We do >>>> not know what Unity8 for desktop will look like. There *will* be a version >>>> of it for desktop. That is not a question. The 20" tablet that is being >>>> discussed should run the desktop version of the interface because it is too >>>> large for the tablet interface to scale properly to it. The desktop >>>> interface is the appropriate choice regardless of whether the tablet is >>>> docked in to the AIO dock or the tablet is freestanding. It doesn't matter. >>>> It should always run the desktop interface because of how large it is. The >>>> desktop interface is different only by the fact that it has windows in it. >>>> I'm not changing anything there. It will be able to run the tablet apps. It >>>> will be able to run the phone apps. It will be able to run the legacy apps. >>>> A 7" tablet will of course run the tablet interface, not the desktop >>>> interface with a windowing interface. >>>> >>>> I never suggested that we change the tablet interface to use windows or >>>> be a desktop interface. I suggested that this special case use the desktop >>>> interface exclusively, instead of the tablet interface. >>>> On Jul 20, 2013 5:34 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> All of those things are stuff you can do on the desktop interface. >>>>> Why wold it be so much better to do that on the Tablet interface? >>>>> >>>>> >-you can still maximize them to run them fullscreen, if you like >>>>> It isn't about that. It is about that you fundamentally would like to >>>>> change how the current interface works. You cant just add in multi >>>>> window. >>>>> You need a way to maximize/minimize windows, usually you do that >>>>> using buttons on a tool bar. By adding a tool bar that is always >>>>> visible >>>>> you loose valuable screen space on a 7" tablet. >>>>> And also you would have to teach users how the multi windows >>>>> features work. >>>>> >>>>> What I'm saying is that if you want the desktop interface you should >>>>> use the desktop interface, you shouldn't make the tablet interface >>>>> become the desktop interface. You can run the touch apps in the >>>>> desktop interface aswell. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>> Interacting with it as a tablet does not limit you to running one >>>>>> application as a time. LibreOffice and Eclipse may not be optimized for >>>>>> touch, but you could still run all of the touch optimized apps. Running >>>>>> them in windows you can move around would not be something to fear. It >>>>>> would be useful. If you *want* to run a nontouch optimized app, that's >>>>>> your >>>>>> problem. Having window management *will* happen regardless, for >>>>>> traditional >>>>>> desktops. Letting you use it on a 20" tablet would just be a good >>>>>> decision. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Desktop mode means you can run several touch optimized apps side by >>>>>> side >>>>>> -you optionally can run legacy, real-work applications like Eclipse >>>>>> -you can still maximize them to run them fullscreen, if you like >>>>>> >>>>>> Any suffering would be self inflicted. There is no downside, and an >>>>>> OSK can be used for anything. On my android tablet I have a keyboard >>>>>> designed for programming, and I've written code swiftly. A larger screen >>>>>> would be even better. I've written documents that are dozens of pages >>>>>> long >>>>>> on a touchscreen. To someone who is practiced with them, it's a breeze. >>>>>> Don't insult touchscreen interfaces just because you're not efficient >>>>>> with >>>>>> them. >>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 5:12 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >Why would that be useful? >>>>>>> Because you are still interacting with it like a tablet, with touch. >>>>>>> Advanced interfaces like LibreOffice or Eclipse wouldn't work >>>>>>> not because of the screen size but because of the input type. >>>>>>> And if you wants to use desktop applications, why wouldn't >>>>>>> you just use the desktop interface? The applications wouldn't >>>>>>> be easier to interact with just because the interface of the >>>>>>> desktop manager were fitted for touch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OSK is worthless for programming or writing documents, even if the >>>>>>> screen is 20". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can't just add in multi-windows and totally change how you would >>>>>>> interact with the only argument being "It's BIG!". The input is >>>>>>> still as >>>>>>> equally limited and broken for desktop interfaces. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And no, in isn't Windows 8 all over again. Windows 8 is putting a >>>>>>> tablet >>>>>>> interface on the desktop. Unity is putting a tablet interface on a >>>>>>> tablet and >>>>>>> a desktop interface on a desktop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Without writing usecases for massive changes you are doing changes >>>>>>> for the sake of changing stuff, probably to the worse. Before you go >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> and totally change how one interface would work you need to have a >>>>>>> very clear plan of what you are doing and why you are doing that. >>>>>>> The latter part of that is why use cases would need to be written. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2013/7/20 Josh Leverette <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On a large display, there is very rarely enough content to use the >>>>>>>> whole screen. If you're using a 20" tablet, it's not for pleasure. It >>>>>>>> needs >>>>>>>> to use multiple windows. This applies to the keyboard as well. The >>>>>>>> keyboard >>>>>>>> would be too large to type on if you just stretched it out to a 20" >>>>>>>> screen. >>>>>>>> Why do you need to write a use case? This use case is plainly obvious. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> would be wasteful to only allow one application on the screen at a >>>>>>>> time for >>>>>>>> large screens. Even the side stage isn't enough. It would be Windows 8 >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> over again to do that. Besides, we need to support the legacy >>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>> like LibreOffice, and Eclipse. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why do you want a single application to fill the whole screen at >>>>>>>> all times? Why would that be useful? >>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 4:50 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The thing is, when you are using a tablet inteface. How would you >>>>>>>>> intercat with multiple windows? >>>>>>>>> We shouldn't add features just for the sake of features, if so we >>>>>>>>> would still be using the terminal >>>>>>>>> only as it's the only (yet?) invented interface that can do >>>>>>>>> anything. We don't want that >>>>>>>>> we want an interface that simple and easy to navigate if it looks >>>>>>>>> good that would be a bonus. >>>>>>>>> To do this we have to say, "this feature should be in because it's >>>>>>>>> needed and works". Not just >>>>>>>>> "this feature looks cool, lets add it". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Could someone write some good use cases for a multi window/more >>>>>>>>> advanced side stage? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2013/7/20 Josh Leverette <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I still don't understand. Why do you want to go into tablet mode, >>>>>>>>>> since that only means everything is fullscreen, as far as we know. >>>>>>>>>> You can >>>>>>>>>> still maximize things and then they're essentially fullscreen, if >>>>>>>>>> that's >>>>>>>>>> what you want, but realistically.. why would you on a large screen? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 1:49 PM, "Omar B." <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hmm, I believe we need to think more about the applications and >>>>>>>>>>> connected peripherals, than the desktop itself. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On the ASUS Transformer AiO, when the screen gets detached, it >>>>>>>>>>> surely becomes a big Tablet. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, I assume it will go from desktop mode to tablet mode (with >>>>>>>>>>> probably a possibility of manual override). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In such big tablet form factors I see the usefulness of >>>>>>>>>>> multi-window, re-sizing or a more feature-rich side stage being >>>>>>>>>>> introduced >>>>>>>>>>> to the touch environment. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 23:30:11 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Multi-window support ? >>>>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> CC: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What is the difference? We really don't know what unity 8 for >>>>>>>>>>> the desktop looks like. But, based on logical induction, the only >>>>>>>>>>> significant difference is that you can move things around and >>>>>>>>>>> resize them >>>>>>>>>>> as windows in one, and they're all fullscreen in the other. You can >>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>> run the same apps in desktop mode as in tablet mode, but more >>>>>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>>>>> might be available to desktop mode. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This isn't Windows. Canonical is striving towards Unity. >>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft chose a divided approach, with clear separation between >>>>>>>>>>> desktop >>>>>>>>>>> and tablet. >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013 11:16 PM, "Omar B." <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >A 20" screen definitely qualifies for desktop mode. I don't >>>>>>>>>>> think it would be running tablet style at that point. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Then, I wonder what would be the case study for the ASUS >>>>>>>>>>> Transformer AiO. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just desktop mode? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hUPWgLXMBY >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.asus.com/AllinOne_PCs/ASUS_Transformer_AiO_P1801/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone >>>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone >>>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone >>>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone >>>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone >>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone >>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Rasmus Eneman >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Rasmus Eneman >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Rasmus Eneman >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rasmus Eneman >>> >> > > > -- > Rasmus Eneman >
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