Am 05.06.2011 20:05, schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
On Sun, 2011-06-05 at 19:39 +0200, Hartmut Noack wrote:
Am 05.06.2011 11:00, schrieb Robert Klaar:
What happens if you set the frames/period settings higher? I have similar
setup and can't get it to run on any lower than 1024 frames(if I want to
avoid xruns), but then I've set the sample rate to 48000. I've never noticed
any problems with the latency, it's at 46 or something now but I can't hear
any difference between this and something lower, can you? .)
Yes I can.
I work with musicians and my experience is:
lower than 5ms: nobody noticed that in comparison with 10ms
5-10ms: everything fine, no complaints
around 16ms: all but some singers realise that something is going on,
faces grow longer, some demand changes.
Ok, so we do agree that the Haas-Effect has nothing to do with audible
delay for a groove, but I don't agree that lower than 5 seconds isn't
audible. It is, regarding to a groove, e.g. played by a MIDI keyboard,
controlling a soft-synth. It's annoying, but a constant delay is
something a musician is able to handle, anyway, I do agree that up to 11
ms are 'quasi' inaudible. Pipe organs might have a delay up to 30 or 50
ms, I dunno, but musicians are able to play such an instrument. Just
jitter is a no go, especially for this case ...
For very big projects on lesser machines I run Jack with 30 or more ms
latency. It is OK for mixing/editing etc but I do not record any
overdubs with such settings.
...
What's the problem with overdubs? You listen to the delayed sound, but
for you it isn't delayed, you play in real-time without monitoring the
delayed recording and the latency compensation moves it to the correct
time.
The problem is, that I record most of the overdubs using software, that
either generates or processes the signal.
Hence latency has no impact, but jitter would have, because jitter
can't be auto-compensated.
I use to record overdubs by playing instruments/voice so we would talk
about audio-jitter here.
That would be:
If I record the very same audio-signal from a Jack-output to a track in
Ardour several times it would be predictable, that the recordings start
to be/sound affected by such jitter-effects.
How many generations do you estimate until such effects would become
audible?
I remember I did some years ago but it
really was not fun and the results where not as good as they could have
been.
I don't understand? What happened? Latency only will become an issue, if
it isn't a fix delay, or if you need to monitor the delayed output, e.g.
for soft synth,
exactly that, see above.
apart from that latency has no influence.
Any recent Linux sould allow settings for 16ms or lower for normal load.
It's related to the hardware and work flow. ElCheapo cards might be able
to keep such latency when Periods/Buffer are set ex 3, jitter than might
be another issue ;).
Yes, it is known, that cheap chipsets almost never provide exactly the
samplerate they are set up with and that they can drift.
To be honest: I do not hear any effects of that.
Please correct me, if I am wrong: the soundcard is only the
player/recorder. Jack processes the signal internally whithout using or
even needing the sound card at all. Thus it is no great suprise, that
material, that I process while Jack runs with a HDA-chipset fails to
degenerate and sounds not better or worse if I play them the other day
on a envy24-chipset or a Presonus Firebox.
I do hear the differences of a ADC/DAC for 30 Euros compared with a
converter for 30 Cents ;-)
If it does not, I try the standard-procedures to fix it, if this does
not help I switch the distro.
And first of all, don't care that much about latency, because latency
very seldom is an issue, just jitter could become an issue.
I agree, that audible jitter would be an absolute show-stopper.
Anyway I never heared such effects in any recordings I made in the last
7-8 years. I only had audible effects in the form of xruns and in
test-scenarios with insane settings or with alpha-software or a severely
misconfigured system.
Cheers!
Ralf
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