Mr. Ocaya p'Ocure:
* Since you have failed to substantiate Ibingira's "shoddy parochial concept" it take it that your was just an ideologue's knee-jerk reaction.
* You have also failed to substantiate your charges that Ssekabaka Muteesa II murdered anyone on a 'rampage in Bunyoro'. Otherwise provide names, precise dates and places. Or at the very least, refer to a published source -- unless you want us to believe that His enemies also failed to seize such a 'golden' opportunity to demonstrate to the world what a wicked fellow He was. It would appear that making baseless claims is your style.
* I am unconvinced that you have read Ibingira's book in question, i.e. African Upheavals Since Independence. You could dispel my doubts by giving us a precis of what you think the book 3 or 4 central tenets are (e.g. www.buganda.com/bitabop1.htm).
Finally, I'd like to disabuse you of a misconception: I am not now, nor have I ever been in the intimidation business. So your efforts to, er, "tie a section on me" will come to naught, zilctch, zip, ...
Ssemakula
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Ocaya p'Ocure" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [FedsNet] Re: ugnet_: Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- Phantom Arms of the 1960s
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:45:10 +0200
Omw. Semakula,
You wrote;
Your sadness notwithstanding, exactly what "shoddy parochial concept" do you refer to?
Truly, with due respect, I have read your concern about my wordings, which I belief were not some sort of gutter languages. But I have to accept, that I was thinking of you trying to view our Ugandan political problems under some sort and narrow approach.
You again continue by asking me;
When did Ssekabaka Muteesa II ever go on a 'rampage in Bunyoro' and whom did he murder?
I think my vivid memory it was one market day in 1964 when Kabaka Muteesa II shot and killed eight people (in Buyaga or Bugangazi---the infamous lost counties). All the eight were Banyoro and thier only crimes were being Banyoro.
You ended your concern by asking;
And, finally, have you ever read Ibingira's book which I excerpted?
Let me end by saying I read that book. And again let me hastened to say that with due respect as a concern Ugandan about the political events in our dear country, I have read several books authored by many Ugandans, because I feel they have tried hard to give the true pictures of the social political problems of our dear country positively.
For example I read the following:-
Gingyera Pinycwa, Pre - Independence politics in Uganda.
Karugire Samwiri, A political History of Uganda.
Kabaka Muteesa II, Desecration of my Kingdom.
Ibingira G.S.K, The forging of an African nation.
Mazrui Ali, Soldiers and Kinsmen in Uganda (Foreigner).
Ingham Kenneth, The Making of modern Uganda (Foreigner).
Just to mention a few and I think this answers you concern, but I think there is no need for you in trying to intimidate those of us who might have not read books those you have read. At times professionally, we have different professions whereby we can't read more, but only to learn some elementary or rudimentary idea of ones country.
Ocaya p'Ocure
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ssemakula
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: [FedsNet] Re: ugnet_: Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- Phantom Arms of the 1960s
Mr. Ocaya p'Ocure:
You write:
"Frankly, I am sad I feel you seem to value what the late Ibingira wrote on some shoddy parochial concept, which is similar with what M7 and his cahoots preached in the Luwero triangle and whereby they constructed an "alliance accompli," that seems to be the beginning of the geographical Ugandan State."
Your sadness notwithstanding, exactly what "shoddy parochial concept" do you refer to?
You continue:
"My simple understanding is that, such arrangement made the Buganda Kingdom and her Kings to come became untouchable human beings in Uganda of some sorts and as such the late Kabaka Muteesa II went on rampage in Bunyoro in the infamous lost counties (or call it lost countries and, or Ghost) in 1964. Truly, I feel if such action of murder was bad enough under the same 1962 constitution, it would have been the great strength of wisdom by the late Grace Ibingira to prevailed over the late Kabaka Muteesa, since Mr. Semakula beliefs the late Ibingira was a wise and trained attorney at law."
When did Ssekabaka Muteesa II ever go on a 'rampage in Bunyoro' and whom did he murder?
And, finally, have you ever read Ibingira's book which I excerpted?
Ssemakula
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Ocaya p'Ocure"
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ,
Subject: Re: [FedsNet] Re: ugnet_: Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- Phantom Arms of the 1960s
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:55:43 +0200
Omw Semakula and FedsNet members,
By Ocaya p'Ocure
Kindly, Mr. Semakula, I think I am not going to block your rights to empty your chest under gist of freedom of _expression_, but I am sad to say that it seems the position you have taken on the issues between the late Grace Ibingira, the late Kabaka Edward Muteesa II against Obote and UPC is quite serious for the sake of a federalism Uganda since, your mind seems to be static but not dynamic. I must hasten to say that I feel these were individuals in their capacities, but not institutions unto themselves. But, I do not know if the brains of other people those worked with Obote, the late Ibingira and the late Kabaka Muteesa had been taken for some sort of IQ tests to know, who were wiser than the others.
To quote from your latest outburst that; " The late Grace Ibingira was not your regular UPC mindless/ignorant minion. Rather, as Secretary-General of the UPC, a Cabinet Minister, a trained attorney at law and legal adviser to the UPC, he was very much an insider who was privy to a great deal that really went on in the party -- not just what was dished out for the gullible public."
Well, I think the late Ibingira being "a trained attorney at law" to quote your own words can't be interpreted that he was too bright that he could not make mistakes like any other human beings. This makes me doubt if you were sincere in your above statements, that; "The late Grace Ibingira was not your regular UPC mindless/ignorant minion." Truly, why used some gutter languages instead of placing your facts on the ground in a civil manner that befits your calibre anyway with respect? Frankly, I am sad I feel you seem to value what the late Ibingira wrote on some shoddy parochial concept, which is similar with what M7 and his cahoots preached in the Luwero triangle and whereby they constructed an "alliance accompli," that seems to be the beginning of the geographical Ugandan State.
Let us agree to disagree that the 1962 Constitution, which to most members of this FedsNet forum was a true and a total Federalism status or whatever they interpret it, was granted on some bias arrangement for only Buganda, within the Ugandan State, which I feel it was bound to collapse with times span. My simple understanding is that, such arrangement made the Buganda Kingdom and her Kings to come became untouchable human beings in Uganda of some sorts and as such the late Kabaka Muteesa II went on rampage in Bunyoro in the infamous lost counties (or call it lost countries and, or Ghost) in 1964. Truly, I feel if such action of murder was bad enough under the same 1962 constitution, it would have been the great strength of wisdom by the late Grace Ibingira to prevailed over the late Kabaka Muteesa, since Mr. Semakula beliefs the late Ibingira was a wise and trained attorney at law.
Lastly, sincerely, Mr. Semakula and your ilk, my heart sinks when I read your outbursts that had no tolerances whatsoever, which are similar with the ones of former apartheid regimes in the whole of the southern African regions those had condemned the whole black race in that regions of being complete less human beings. Your minds, I am sad to say are like the one of Adolf Hitler and his cahoots who thought that the all political wrongs in German society and the world at large were caused by the Jews and only the Jews alone must bear their crosses towards the ghettoes and faced the holocaust fires!!!
Ocaya p'Ocure
"I think dialogue must replace the SWORD in the next century, or it would become a double edged blade, which would spare no one in Uganda"! Author---Ocaya p'Ocure 1997
----- Original Message -----
From: J Ssemakula
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:09 PM
Subject: [FedsNet] Re: ugnet_: Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- Phantom Arms of the 1960s
Mr. Dambisya,
Your bemusement is hardly at stake here. The Baganda have a saying that "Gwe wabbanga naye, bwakusula e manju tewebaka". Loosely translated: 'when your former co-thief visits with you, you do not sleep easily.'
The late Grace Ibingira was not your regular UPC mindless/ignorant minion. Rather, as Secretary-General of the UPC, a Cabinet Minister, a trained attorney at law and legal adviser to the UPC, he was very much an insider who was privy to a great deal that really went on in the party -- not just what was dished out for the gullible public.
As such, one can expect him to be an authoritative source of the UPC internal/private machinations, precisely because he fell out with Obote -- a factor the latter seems to have been too stupid to fathom the import of. It probably came as a rude surprise to Obote, that Ibingira had been "taking notes" all the time he was with him.
Now, I am not so naive as to fail to realize that as a former victim of Obote, Ibingira might have an axe to grind.
What Ibingira did was "to spill his guts", "to sing" about facts he had intimate knowledge of , having been such an important heavyhitter in the party.
Calling Ibingira's changed loyalties from the UPC & Obote "bias" is not only laughable, it does zilch to undermine the facts he presented in the court public opinion.
Further, it is accepted practice in courts of law for the prosecution to get accomplices to testify against each other.
If you have anything to say about it in defence of your hero, you had best address the facts Ibingira presented -- more of which you can expect to see here.
Ssemakula
ps: Later, I'll get to what Mandela had to say of Obote in the pre-OAU days. Start preparing for the defence of your hero ...
A minor correction, the Muganda man who educated Obote, Nekyon, etc in Lango after Obote's biological father died of leprosy was Nalwemanyidde of the Nseenene clan, not Nalwerimidde as I had posted earlier. It has been said, that he sort of semi-adopted them, but that is another story.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "YOSWA DAMBISYA"
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ,
CC:
Subject: ugnet_: Re: [FedsNet] Part 111 BUGANDA CRISIS 1964 -- PhantomArms of the 1960s
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:10:59 +0200
Ndugu Ssemakula,
While I am enjoying these exchanges of yours regarding our not so
distant political history, I am bemused by the fact that you would
characterise as "authoritative" anything said by Grace Ibingira of
Milton Obote and his times. Evidently, the two differed in very
fundamental ways; one was imprisoned by the other; each felt betrayed by
the other. Supposing Milton Obote were to write about Grace Ibingira (as
I believe he did during some exchanges with a London Friend), would you
accept his writings/sayings as authoritative on said subject?
I've just got hold of Kanyeihamba's recent book, I intend to go through
it when time allows. Pinycwa's foreword seems to prepare the reader for
yet another biased account of Uganda's constitutional and political
developments. Where, then, does one turn for unbiased, objective and
authentic reading on Uganda?
Best regards,
Yoswa
