Govt wanted to kill me
Monitor
Inside Politics | Q&A | July 27 - Aug 2, 2005
Interview Daily
Monitors Reporter talks to former Editor of The Citizen, but now Democratic Party (DP) USA Chairman, Lawrence Kiwanuka Nsereko, on why he fled Uganda and his take on Ugandas political transition.
New DP USA Chief And former Citizen editor: Lawrence Kiwanuka Nsereko
What does you appointment portend for the Democratic Party?
First of all I wouldn't say my appointment, I would say our election; I have an accomplished team of women and men who are willing to work and ensure that the next government is formed by our party; and that the Democratic Party is well understood by the general population. You know their has been a long running well orchestrated campaign by the anti-democracy forces to discredit the Democratic Party as being parochial and none nationalistic.
This is totally divorced from the truth. If you look at the history with a critical eye and mind, you will discover that the Party being accused of not being nationalistic is the party that stood its ground and rejected the idea of the Kabaka of Buganda being the head of state. So peop
le
usually say that DP is a pro-Buganda Party, How can that be the case? You see, these guys speak with forked tongues, when they speak to people in Mengo, they tell Baganda "to be careful, DP will not take care of you; you remember the sixties, they are against you".
When they get outside Buganda they reverse the position. For example for us in DP when we call for Federalism, we do not call for it in favour of particular regions, it is our considered view that federalism, and genuine federalism is the answer to the mismanagement we see in our local government; we call for federalism across the board. We believe that Federalism is equally good for Ochora in Palabek, as it is for Ndyanabo, in Kanaaba.
Thus, our election portends one thing, not only for DP, but for the nation, we are gong to have the story straightened, and we are not going to allow the dishonest seed published by NRM and the anti democracy forces germinate. We are going to mobilize resources to oi
l the
wheels of DP and we are going to give NRM the run for its ill gotten monies. It is a new era, in the Democratic Party. The nation is going to see several new faces emerge on the political scene.
The ever seeming warring faction in the democratic party never seem to be reconciling even amidst the issuance of a registration certificate which we thought was the source of the conflict what do you think is the problem?
I am going to try not to sound academic as I discuss your question. But in brief the answer to what you call disagreements in the Democratic Party is an indicator of how democratic the DP actually is. The problem is that there has been a little problem with managing the modus operandi. The difference between, for example NRM and DP is that the fall out in DP is over liberalization of Democracy; however across the divide the fall out we see is excessive control and a total absence of tolerance.
Those who are in the political sci
ence
field will agree with me that what we see in the Democratic Party is unlimited Democracy which often results into a state of anarchy. Thus, in sum I can say that the situation in DP though a little tingly, it is not a major problem. In a few months we will have a refurbished leadership in the party and all these concerns you have will be washed away to the dustbin of history. But also you have to note that the state machinery has had a hand in some of what has happened in DP.
It is important to know that DP as a national Party is not napoleons Animal Firm where all people bleat in unison. The party brings together people from various and varied characters, it is a political rainbow. For example the fighting between Bwengye and Ssemogerere is partially ideological; it is the Hawks versus the Doves in DP. You will find that those who were with Bwengye are the people who in the 1980 worked close with UFM, Fedemu, and some with NRA.
You ran out of the country after you were linked to the renegade rebel Itongwa. What was your relationship with him?
Herbert Ssedyabane, who many of you know as Itongwa, which is his bush name is a personal friend and actually that is all I have with him as it concerns relationships. But I know where your question is coming from; some people have said that I was the political head for his group; that is wrong. The problem is that when you look at Herbert's political manifesto, the concerns he expressed in there are concerns I continue to express today about the NRM regime.
You stand accused of concealing information regarding the death of (Karakire) Police officer killed by Itongwa.
I think Karakire was very unfortunate; he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. It is possible that individuals associated with Itongwa were responsible for his death. But also it should be noted that Karakire was on a first track promotion schedule, and allegations that he was being groomed for a leading position in the forces can not be thrown by the wayside.
Could be that someone within NRA/M was unhappy with the situation? May be; there is a thousand and one possibilities. I have spoken with government officials who have raised the same issue of Karakire to me with inuendos that seem to imply that I had prior knowledge before he was killed.
The Answer is
NO.
Even though I was a member of UFM, there are forms of brutality that I reject. For example the same people who are said to have killed Karakire, the Itongwas, kidnapped James Makumbi, them minister of health. When I went to interview Makumbi in captivity, some of rebels being my former colleagues in UFM asked me whether they should "finish him off" so as to scare other ministers. I strongly advised them not to do so; I actually insisted that they should release the lady and the young boy forthwith.
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New DP USA Chief And former Citizen editor: Lawrence Kiwanuka Nsereko |
I actually remember telling Itongwa that if you need to have such an impact on Museveni you should find someone who is close to Museveni not a toothless minister like Makumbi.
Though I knew that Makumbi and Museveni were good friends because of what Makumbi did for the rebels when he was at Mulago. I think Makumbi is the one who actually preserved the body of one of the NRA founding members and kept it somewhere in the medical school.
I told them that politically it was destructive if they killed Makumbi; I even promised Itongwa that if he spared Makumbi I would arrange an interview with BBC for him; I advised him that if Makumbi was killed, BBC will view him as a thug and they would not accord him the interview.
I told Itongwa that if he does not free Makumbi I will not publish the story, Itongwa agreed to free Makumbi; if you remember Makumbi was released on Wednesday and
The
Citizen came out with the story on Thursday. I do not claim to have saved Makumbi, but I think I contributed. So why would I sponsor Karakire's death and spare Makumbi, whom I knew was an NRM confidant?
What was your role in UFM?
I was an Information Officer; gathering intelligence information, which I passed on the UTF boys. Then the Urban Task Force guys used the information for their operation. As Francis Bwengye says in his recent interview, UFM did not completely fold in the eighties; there was just a secession in our activities.
We had camps in functioning camps In Misindye near Buwama, two in Kabutemba and Nkwale in Gomba, another in Kasaayi near Namugongo and several others. And these guys continued with the struggle. Many of us refused to go over to Fedemu because we learnt that Paulo Muwanga had in one way or the other a hand in it and Museveni's NRA for several reasons, of which Bwengye gives some was never a choice for us.
As A DP member do you ever regret using violence?
I have nothing to regret. First, we did not use violence; we used force to effect change. Even though I was very young, about 13 years, when I started working with UFM, I knew then, as I know now that the only way to deal with the regime that rigged the December 10th 1980 election by the use of the gun was to speak the same language to them.
My going to school was at the mercy of the local UPC youth wingers, like Muyanja, Sseguya under the command of Darawusi Kayanja. Many of us did not pick up the gun because it was a fun thing to do we were forced. Violence is what is happening in Northern Uganda; where the forces are attacking civilians. In UFM, that was never our policy.
Many of your colleagues have come back home and apparently we have seen nothing being done to them. Are we about to see you coming home?
It is my desire to come home; this is one of the reasons why I am taking on this project. When I escaped from Uganda my father was attacked, beaten and left for dead a few days after my departure. The damaged he suffered kept him in a constant unhealthy situation until he passed away. I would have loved to attend his funeral I couldn't. I have three children in Uganda.
The other day my daughter who was five years when I left called me and asked me to send her a make-up kit! I would like to come home and be with my people, but most people who return have conditions put in place for them. The other thing is that I have several court cases pending
against
me, if I return today the government can legally put me away for jumping bail. But believe me I am on my way home. I just have to be careful; the best fighter preserves himself. He or she has to be willing to lose a battle in readiness to win the war.
What are the circumstances that exactly led to your flight out of the country?
I was arrested and held for about seven days. During my detention I met with several senior government officers who made offers to me if I revealed the whereabouts of Itongwa, if I quit The Citizen and the DP Mobilizers Group of which I was a founding member. I turned down the offers, and then they threatened to charge me with treason, and for other crimes under the sectarian act. I just laughed it all off.
Due to pressure they decided to charge me with sedition in regards to a story I had published revealing that the Ugandan government was training Congolese rebels to attack Congo somewhere in Mityana. After getting out on bail, I had an interview with the monitor, as I was leaving the monitor office
s one of
my informers working with ISO approached me and told me that they had drawn up treason charges against me. I went into hiding and planned my escape. Also the people who were involved with the training of the rebels to go to Congo were planning to kill me; so I had to get out.
You came out against the third tem but the Movement and President Museveni seen to have come out smarter as the proponents of the whole scheme seem to say that the process was transparent, open and for the benefit of the country. Where does this put you?
As far as I can recall some of us have stood in opposition to NRM's window dressing democracy; the shame Broad based government, the constitution making process and more. What happened in Parliament was expected. That legislature has been Museveni's rubber stamp for the longest. Passing the life presidency clause by political goons and minions, excuse the language, does not take away the fact that it is wrong.
When it comes to constitutional matters the priority should never be about numbers; numbers even Kakooza Mutale tells us are in place because of fear. This life presidency thing should not take most of our time; we should focus on how to uproot this regime and provide Ugandans with a Constitution that is worth the name. How transparent is a process where members of parliament are openly paid off, or where those who abstain from voting are threatened to be taken to the Kangaroo courts.
Your party President Dr. Paul Kawanga Ssemogere seems to himself hold on to party position and seems not to bulge under the pressure and persistent calls to have him leave the seat. Would you as a party have the moral authority to state that the President should leave power in light of your party President?
Get it from me, Ssemogerere is on his way out; he has told me in person and in writing. However there is a process that we have to adhere to as we show him the exit. What you have to understand is that the party constitution does not bar him from standing again, but he has told me that he will not, out of his own choosing.
Now that the party has been registered one of the major impediments to leadership change has been overcome. I have called for change in DP's leadership for
sometime, I even had a fight with Kitariko over this issue in 1994.
You know I am more of a Hawk-DP than a Dove-DP, Ideologically me and Ssemogerere we meet in the grey area. However we cannot use crooked means to oust him, we have to adhere to the proper process. He is not perfect, but he has done a descent job, quite a good one, under tough circumstances.
We are bound to go for a referendum on the Political system what is your take on the whole scheme?
This is one of the saddest things I find in Uganda today. How can a people be made to choose between their being free and not being free? I opposed the first referendum, and in the same sprit I oppose this one. It is a matter of principal you do not vote on whether to have your inherent rights or not, No. Unless I am missing something, but I am convinced that it is for material gain that hither to astute individuals like Nsibambi are going along with this nonsense. The resources being wasted on the referendum could do a wonderful Job is aiding the people of the war ravaged north.
One of the reasons for the Movements strength today in the country is lack of a credible opposition in the country. Most parties are locked up in wrangles that we hardly see anything promising coming out of them. What is the future of Political parties in the country?
I have had this no credible opposition from people like Nsaba Buturo; how credible is Nsaba Buturo? This is a guy who presided over an office that was in charge of Panda Gari and he has the audacity to talk about credibility?
Those in NRM talk of the opposition as being factious; the last time I checked there was the Bidandi faction, Kakooza Mutale now has one, and there is the Omnipotent secretive Akazu. But above all Reform Agenda and FDC are all break away groups of NRM. As I said before the only reason you thin
k that
there is no problem in NRM is because of its heavy-handed way of controlling dissent in its ranks.
What is your take on the 2006 elections?
If we in the opposition we organize effectively Museveni is past tense.
So do you endorse alliances?
No, that is not what I said, DP is a popular party, and it has the most credible record in the struggle. I think it is time for those in the opposition to come to us, so we can move forward. We encourage all forces that are working for democratization and we should encourage each other. However, we have to be careful that those who are joining the opposition for political expedience do not taint our purity.
Way forward?
The way forward for Uganda as a nation is for leaders to step away from personal cults and think about systems. If Museveni had invested the last 20 years in creating a decent political system, Uganda would not be losing investors who are concerned about the political future of the country.
Those in NRM, have to wake up and stop crafting laws, like amending the constitution to benefit a single individual. They have to be visionary, they are ridding on the back of a tiger, and chances are that they will end up as its dinner; if you me ask Tumukunde; he was almighty in 2001, now the poor lad is in cells. But also of Great importance as a nation we have to look at northern Uganda. Uganda will stagnate if we do not solve the Northern Uganda question. There is need to
nationalize the plight of the masses in the north.
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