Christian,
What you say is of course true, but ultimately will end up as cost (pound
notes, dollar bills, RMBs). The cost will end up with the end user -
either as taxation - or in costs to use the service.

I speak for myself typically in these debates, and I am very cautious
about what I infer other people may think. I think I know as many people
who are passionate about this topic as dispassionate, I also know that a
lot of people may value certain aspects of surveillance.
And I re-iterate for every person making it more expensive there will be
three making it cheaper (both in real numeric terms but also in the terms
you lay out below).

I don’t believe there is a technical solution to this problem
unfortunately (and if there was, there would be an equal good solution to
getting around the problem - technology is a double edged sword.

Regards,
Neil.

On 17/01/2014 13:02, "Christian de Larrinaga" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I expect you are talking about "cost" from the narrower operator
>perspective. That is a very small subsection of the overall impact of
>those using Internet networks.
>
>In my view the debate on surveillance needs to appreciate the cost of
>surveillance is not just about money. It is both much higher in money
>terms than what an operator might be asked to spend (and be reimbursed
>for) and also carries broader societal costs. Societal costs include
>such issues as degradation of trust (privacy) across societal
>institutions and relationships that constitutionally require privacy.
>
>That is the very institutions required to monitor and oversee such
>activities as "surveillance" are themselves weakened.
>
>
>
>Christian 
>Neil J. McRae wrote:
>> On 17/01/2014 11:18, "Christian de Larrinaga" <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> not equal steps ... not even close to being equal.
>>>
>>> The challenge is to define what is going on. Some operators will have a
>>> perspective "in the network" that differs from their users. So if you
>>> see an attack as a user you are seeing damage to your own privacy and
>>> security over any number of operator networks and services.  As an
>>> operator you see an attack as damaging your network assets and
>>>business.
>>>
>>> IETF is coming down on a definition which is describing "an attack on
>>> the Internet".  The use of the word "attack" in that context does not
>>> coincide with "war" though. It is carefully framed.  The aim that is
>>> emerging is not to prevent surveillance but to make the current conduct
>>> of pervasive monitoring much more expensive to undertake.
>>>
>>> With a significant figure of $35 billion annually being flashed around
>>> as the likely damage just to US Cloud services from the revelations of
>>> pervasive monitoring there is cost on all sides that is not being taken
>>> into account currently in the actual economics of current surveillance
>>> practice.  Again how those "damages" are apportioned are not going to
>>>be
>>> equally distributed.
>>
>>
>> Whilst I applaud the goal I seriously doubt that this will be a
>>successful
>> undertaking. To make it more expensive will ultimately cost vendors,
>> operators and ultimately end users - end users won¹t pay so I question
>>the
>> realness of this at all. It has long been established that technical
>> solutions to political and social problems do not work. For every guy
>> making something more expensive there will be three making it cheaper.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Neil.
>>
>>

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