I'll weigh in very quickly to Deb's post by enhancing, just a little, what
Jennifer suggested. I think we do need to have children (particularly young
children, English Language Learners and those who struggle at any age) in
challenging text and agree that the purpose is critical.
Let me make a couple quick points. At the word level, Dick is correct that
we want kids to have an enormous amount of independent practice in very
readable text, but I wonder about the zone of proximal development
(Vygotsky). Wouldn't we agree that in order to improve, we want kids in
slightly more challenging text in order to gradually build a lexicon (word
bank) of more sophisticated and instantly recognizable words.
For comprehension purposes, I think we can engage kids in more challenging
text under a couple circumstances:
- the text has been read aloud multiple times (3 or more)
- the child is highly motivated to read the text independently
- the proximity of a more skilled reader who is "on call" for the
child reading the challenging text
- cutting the length of a more challenging text and copying an
excerpt for the child to read
-reading more challenging text for a specific purpose -- i.e.
applying the comprehension strategy most recently taught
I have a much more detailed discussion of this issue in a later chapter --
can't remember where -- I just think we need to stay focused on the purpose
and be a bit more flexible in thinking about this issue. You know your
kids, you want them to feel the delight of tackling something very
difficult, I think we can have a good balance between engaging them in
readable text and offering them text in their zone of proximal development.
Adults can choose not to read text they consider challenging (although many
of us often do) but kids are in a different situation -- we have a
responsibility to help them improve every day.
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 7:41 AM
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Subject: Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 3
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Understand Digest, question about this list (Deb Smith)
2. Re: Understand Digest, question about this list
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
3. Getting the juices flowing... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
4. Re: Getting the juices flowing... (Deb Smith)
5. word decoding in 11th grade student (Denise Dole)
6. Re: word decoding in 11th grade student (Deb Smith)
7. Re: Getting the juices flowing... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
8. Re: Getting the juices flowing... (Beverlee Paul)
9. Re: Getting the juices flowing... (Carol Carlson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:22:13 -0400
From: "Deb Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Understand] Understand Digest, question about this list
To: "'Special Chat List for \"To Understand: New Horizons in Reading
Comprehension\"'" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
yes
Hello all,
I am very excited to eavesdrop on this conversation, but I am unable to get
and read the book just yet. May I post a question periodically to the
readers? Or would this disrupt the conversation? I want to follow the book
talk and take your thinking with me when I finally get to read the book.
Thanks,
Bonita
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:08:51 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Understand] Understand Digest, question about this list
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Bonita
I don't have a problem with an occasional question or post. You have always
been a thoughtful participant on the mosaic list. I think we just need to
be
careful to make sure the discussion stays focused on the book and naturally
that is easier when you actually have the book! I can't wait for you to get
your copy so we can hear about your insights!
Jennifer
In a message dated 3/16/2008 1:13:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hello all,
I am very excited to eavesdrop on this conversation, but I am unable to get
and read the book just yet. May I post a question periodically to the
readers? Or would this disrupt the conversation? I want to follow the
book talk
and take your thinking with me when I finally get to read the book.
Thanks,
Bonita
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:41:32 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Understand] Getting the juices flowing...
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Good afternoon, fellow scholars! :-)
In rereading the prelude and chapter one, I have a few "nudges" for the
group. My other moderators may chime in with their own ideas/questions as
well.
Feel free to respond to any or none of these prompts...you can just share
your
own thoughts and reflections, but please share!!!
Ellin writes near the end of chapter one that it takes some struggle and a
little intellectual discomfort to really learn. With that in mind, I ask
you
to consider the following:
1. In the prelude, Ellin talks about the powerful impact writing has on her
own ability to understand. Thinking about your own intellectual life, have
you
found a similar connection between deep understanding and writing? Or has
something else been your vehicle toward understanding?
2. I think there are moments in our own personal, intellectual and teaching
lives that are pivotal...where a lightbulb goes off and things are never
quite the same. It seems, (though I don't want to speak for Ellin,) that
the
conference with Jamika described in the first chapter became such a moment
for
her. I am wondering, as we explore the question of what it means to
understand,
if it may be important to understand the development of our own
intellects...what have our own "ah-hah!" or "uh-oh" moments been? Did we
wait until
college to have a rich intellectual life? Did we leave that life behind in
college? Who have been the people that fostered that development of our
intellects
and what kinds of things did those people do for you? (Think about what
Rick
did for Ellin...has someone done that for us? Are we being that person for
someone else?)
3. What do YOU think "make sense" means? What goes on in your head and in
your life as you work to make sense of something?
4. Given our current political climate, "research-based" curriculum and
pedagogy, what would our students say if we asked them what "makes sense"
means?
Okay, scholars, now it is up to you. What are you thinking about? What are
you understanding so far about this book? What questions do you have?
Jennifer
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:55:28 -0400
From: "Deb Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Understand] Getting the juices flowing...
To: "'Special Chat List for \"To Understand: New Horizons in Reading
Comprehension\"'" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ellin writes near the end of chapter one that it takes some struggle and a
little intellectual discomfort to really learn. With that in mind, I ask
you to consider the following:
I just heard Dick Allington at Michigan Reading Association on Saturday,
March 15. It was very interesting. He spoke of the misunderstanding that
kids have to struggle with text to understand, but adults won't. The
example he gave was this. If we have a typical adult text with 300 words
per page. Thinking it is an independent level of 99 percent, the reader
would not know 3 words a page. Most adults would not read the book. Adults
expect to know 99.99999999999999999 percent of the words. So why do we as
teachers think it is ok to give kids books at an instructional level of 97
percent let alone 99 percent? We need to be very careful with our teaching
decisions. He had a ton more for us to think about. Students have to read
lots of words to catch up with their peers. We know that good and superior
readers read lots of books. Our struggling readers do not read. Look in
their desks. Can they read what is in their desks? Science books? Social
studies? Math? What about the books the child self selected? What about
the reading books? It was very interesting thinking about the issue of
intellectual discomfort AND EASY enough to build comfort to build a word
bank.
My mind is spinning of how to balance the two.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:24:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Denise Dole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Understand] word decoding in 11th grade student
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello, I have a student in 11th grade who uses only context and
initial letter of words to decode or recognize words. Her spelling is
very poor. Currently she is having great difficulty in her
Philosophy class. I believe the text is too difficult and she isn't
understanding enough to use context to assist word recognition.I believe she
has poor phonemic awareness, is that possible for an 11th grade student?What
are some instructional methods I can use to teach her to decode words. What
approach would be most effective, phonics or morphological strategies? Any
other?Can anyone suggest activities to use with this student? Thank you
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 20:55:41 -0400
From: "Deb Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Understand] word decoding in 11th grade student
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Special Chat List for \"To Understand: New
Horizons in Reading Comprehension\"'"
<[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dick Allington says, find text that is easy enough for her to read then
smile at her. We teach our kids to be teacher reliant. If instead we do
nothing BUT smile everytime they look at us, they will read and rely on
themselves. Of course the text has to be just right too. MEANING 99.999999
percent that they can read. He did a study to prove this so he has research
to back it up. Not what you are looking for I am sure. I bet it works
though. Imagine if every classroom had books that children could read.
Imagine if every classroom had history books at all levels, and English
books at all levels, etc. etc. Imagine if every child actually read in
every high school class for a minumum of 10-15 minutes about the topic they
were studying how smart they would be? Michael Pressley challenged us to
dream before he died a year ago. Can we the current educators of the
children we truly care about the minds of children change the world, one
classroom at a time? deb
Hello, I have a student in 11th grade who uses only context and
initial letter of words to decode or recognize words. Her spelling is
very poor. Currently she is having great difficulty in her
Philosophy class. I believe the text is too difficult and she isn't
understanding enough to use context to assist word recognition.I believe she
has poor phonemic awareness, is that possible for an 11th grade student?What
are some instructional methods I can use to teach her to decode words. What
approach would be most effective, phonics or morphological strategies? Any
other?Can anyone suggest activities to use with this student? Thank you
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:44:38 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Understand] Getting the juices flowing...
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I have struggled with this for years. Maybe, we need to consider what the
purpose is for our lesson(s). If we are working on fluency, decoding skills
we
need easy books. But couldn't we be modeling the struggle through read
alouds
when teaching comprehension???
Then...there are books which are very simply written which require
inferential thinking---a struggle---to comprehend. An example might be "the
Giving
Tree" or "Grandfather Twilight." Many poems would also seem to work for
this
purpose...decodable words but deeper meanings when read and reread...
Perhaps it is all about balance...giving kids LOTS of easy reading to
develop proficiency AND opportunities to stretch their minds.
Jennifer
In a message dated 3/16/2008 2:56:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
just heard Dick Allington at Michigan Reading Association on Saturday,
March 15. It was very interesting. He spoke of the misunderstanding that
kids have to struggle with text to understand, but adults won't. The
example he gave was this. If we have a typical adult text with 300 words
per page. Thinking it is an independent level of 99 percent, the reader
would not know 3 words a page. Most adults would not read the book.
Adults
expect to know 99.99999999999999999 percent of the words. So why do we as
teachers think it is ok to give kids books at an instructional level of 97
percent let alone 99 percent? We need to be very careful with our teaching
decisions. He had a ton more for us to think about
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:13:12 -0600
From: Beverlee Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Understand] Getting the juices flowing...
To: "Special Chat List for To Understand": "New Horizons in Reading
Comprehension <[email protected]>";
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I think I'd go even a little further and say that nearly ALL instructional
decisions that are made--literally thousands a day--are our attempt to
balance. To know which things aren't mutually exclusive--and which ones
are. To know how much of this, how much of that, which application when,
etc. Skillful teaching is, and I believe should be, a constant happy
struggle.
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:44:38 -0400> To:
[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Understand] Getting the
juices flowing...> > > I have struggled with this for years. Maybe, we need
to consider what the > purpose is for our lesson(s). If we are working on
fluency, decoding skills we > need easy books. But couldn't we be modeling
the struggle through read alouds > when teaching comprehension???>
Then...there are books which are very simply written which require >
inferential thinking---a struggle---to comprehend. An example might be "the
Giving > Tree" or "Grandfather Twilight." Many poems would also seem to work
for this > purpose...decodable words but deeper meanings when read and
reread...> Perhaps it is all about balance...giving kids LOTS of easy
reading to > develop proficiency AND opportunities to stretch their minds. >
Jennifer> > In a message dated 3/16/2008 2:56:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:> > just heard Dick Allington at Michigan
Reading Association on Saturday,> March 15. It was very interesting. He
spoke of the misunderstanding that> kids have to struggle with text to
understand, but adults won't. The> example he gave was this. If we have a
typical adult text with 300 words> per page. Thinking it is an independent
level of 99 percent, the reader> would not know 3 words a page. Most adults
would not read the book. Adults> expect to know 99.99999999999999999 percent
of the words. So why do we as> teachers think it is ok to give kids books at
an instructional level of 97> percent let alone 99 percent? We need to be
very careful with our teaching> decisions. He had a ton more for us to think
about> > > > > > > **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice
on AOL Money & > Finance.
(http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)>
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:41:05 -0500
From: Carol Carlson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Understand] Getting the juices flowing...
To: "Special Chat List for \"To Understand: New Horizons in Reading
Comprehension\"" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Hi, all,
I have questions regarding the text students choose to read during
independent reading.
I had always been told that students should read at their independent
reading (99%) during independent reading. When I heard Ellin last
year at a conference, she talked about students needing to read
challenging material during independent reading. It really started me
thinking about how we can move students in our district forward. (You
need to know that on our state test over 85% of our students meet and
exceed standards in all grades 3-8.)
We are being challenged by our board regarding the rigor of the
curriculum, and I do agree that we do need to up the rigor, but am
not sure what that means to a classroom teacher. I know that teachers
tend to teach the same skills or strategies over grade levels. For
example, our framework states that in grade 5 students will begin to
identify double plot novels, yet I know some teachers are not
introducing that strategy by that grade. With our population, that is
not an unreasonable expectation.
I realize that students need to read easier books when they are
learning content in social studies and science in order to learn new
content. But as we look at how to re structure our independent
reading, I'd like to know what you all do. Do you encourage students
to choose independent or more challenging reading/text. We are
contemplating using the Schoolwide Enrichment Model - REading that is
from the University of Connecticut, and they recommend students read
1 year above their grade level, I think. The SEM R model is
recommended for grades 3-8.
At what level should students begin to read challenging text? I
understand that primary students need to develop their fluency and
easy reading is excellent for that. But then, how do they learn to
comprehend?
In reading the posts both with this list and the MRA notes, I'd like
to hear your thoughts.
Carol
District 102
Language Arts Content Specialist
On Mar 16, 2008, at 8:44 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I have struggled with this for years. Maybe, we need to consider
> what the
> purpose is for our lesson(s). If we are working on fluency,
> decoding skills we
> need easy books. But couldn't we be modeling the struggle through
> read alouds
> when teaching comprehension???
> Then...there are books which are very simply written which require
> inferential thinking---a struggle---to comprehend. An example might
> be "the Giving
> Tree" or "Grandfather Twilight." Many poems would also seem to work
> for this
> purpose...decodable words but deeper meanings when read and reread...
> Perhaps it is all about balance...giving kids LOTS of easy reading to
> develop proficiency AND opportunities to stretch their minds.
> Jennifer
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2008 2:56:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> just heard Dick Allington at Michigan Reading Association on
> Saturday,
> March 15. It was very interesting. He spoke of the
> misunderstanding that
> kids have to struggle with text to understand, but adults won't. The
> example he gave was this. If we have a typical adult text with
> 300 words
> per page. Thinking it is an independent level of 99 percent, the
> reader
> would not know 3 words a page. Most adults would not read the
> book. Adults
> expect to know 99.99999999999999999 percent of the words. So why
> do we as
> teachers think it is ok to give kids books at an instructional
> level of 97
> percent let alone 99 percent? We need to be very careful with our
> teaching
> decisions. He had a ton more for us to think about
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL
> Money &
> Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
> _______________________________________________
> Understand mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/
> understand_literacyworkshop.org
------------------------------
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End of Understand Digest, Vol 1, Issue 3
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